1993-10-31 – Michael Lindemann, Don Berliner – Halloween 1993

Art introduces the program, mentioning the absence of George Knapp, and shifted the focus to guest Linda Howe, who was speaking from a conference in San Francisco. Linda brought in colleague Michael Lindemann to discuss the government’s long-standing policy of silence regarding UFO phenomena. Michael, with a background in theology and psychology, argued that UFOs could significantly influence our future, posing social challenges and shaping human evolution in unexpected ways. He criticized the government’s secretive approach, suggesting a shift from outright concealment to a nuanced quasi-disclosure policy. This policy, while not fully transparent, appeared to be a damage control strategy in light of increasing public awareness and leaks.

Michael Lindemann discusses the MJ-12 documents, which he suspects might be a sophisticated hoax but a significant one, designed to influence public perception about UFOs and government involvement. He observes a significant increase in alien imagery across various media platforms, including TV, advertising, and even comic strips, suggesting a cultural acclimatization to the concept of alien abductions.

Lindemann presents a Ziggy cartoon as an example, where the humor derived from an alien abduction scene demonstrates how normalized the concept has become in popular culture. This normalization, according to him, is a significant societal change. As a futurist, Lindemann explains that his work involves studying trends to predict future outcomes, but he emphasizes the uncertainty and complexity of this task, especially regarding UFOs.

The discussion then shifts to the reasons behind government secrecy on UFOs. Lindemann speculates on multiple interlocking reasons, including initial encounters during World War II with phenomena like “foo fighters”. He believes that the decision to keep UFO information secret was made out of fear and uncertainty, and the government now faces the difficult task of dealing with the consequences of these long-held secrets.

Art Bell and Michael Lindemann delve into the historical context of the UFO phenomenon, particularly in the late 1940s, when sightings increased dramatically. This period coincided with significant technological advancements, such as the atomic bomb, and heightened political tensions, like the emergence of Joseph Stalin as a threat.

Lindemann suggests that the U.S. military considered the possibility of an alien invasion, especially after the Roswell incident and similar events, which fueled the government’s decision to maintain secrecy. He outlines several reasons for this secrecy: the potential for public panic, the possibility of alien technology being a secret weapon, and the fear of admitting ignorance about the nature of these phenomena.

Regarding public response to potential UFO revelations, Lindemann believes that society has evolved and might handle the truth better now than in the past. However, he emphasizes the risks associated with sudden revelations, especially if the evidence indicates hostility or poses a threat. He argues that any disclosure should be gradual to avoid overwhelming the public and destabilizing societal belief systems.

The conversation then shifts to the risks involved in disclosure. Lindemann points out that revealing the truth about UFOs and alien activities poses risks to the government, which has maintained secrecy for decades, and potentially to the public, which might struggle to assimilate this information into their existing belief structures.

Lindemann expresses concern about the public’s reaction to a sudden revelation of extraterrestrial life, predicting potential violence due to the assault on deeply held belief systems. He emphasizes the importance of gradually educating the public to avoid shock and anger, which often arise when belief systems are challenged.

Lindemann then discusses the Roswell incident, considering it the most important single case in UFO history due to its numerous high-quality witnesses and comprehensive cover-up. He stresses, however, that Roswell is not the only significant case, as many other corroborating cases exist.

Regarding the potential for an official revelation, Lindemann doubts there is any political advantage to openly disclosing UFO information. He suggests that the government usually reveals the truth only when forced by circumstances, such as impending leaks or external pressure. The conversation touches on the possibility of a major public announcement, but Lindemann believes it’s more likely that the truth will emerge gradually through a growing national conversation and credible research.

Art Bell wraps up his conversation with Michael Lindemann and introduces his next guest, Don Berliner. Before leaving, Lindemann reiterates the importance of gradual public education regarding UFOs and aliens. Art Bell then speaks with Linda Howe, who agrees that the evidence supports the existence of extraterrestrial phenomena and emphasizes the challenge the government faces in disclosing such information.

Art then transitions to Don Berliner, an aviation and science writer, and a prominent figure in UFO research. Berliner, who co-wrote the book “Crash at Corona,” discusses the Roswell incident, considering it the most thoroughly investigated UFO case with compelling witnesses and evidence. While acknowledging that physical evidence like a body or wreckage would be conclusive, Berliner believes that the Roswell case is as close as we’ve gotten to solid proof of extraterrestrial visitation.

Berliner agrees with some of Lindemann’s views on public disclosure but has his reservations. He suggests that the truth about UFOs might emerge due to a change in alien behavior, government disclosure under pressure, or other unforeseen factors. Berliner, drawing on his long experience in UFO research, compares the early days of UFO sightings in the late 1940s and early 1950s with contemporary reports, noting a significant shift in the nature of sightings and increased interest from the scientific community, particularly regarding abduction phenomena.

The conversation then touches on a recent Associated Press report suggesting that people who have seen UFOs are psychologically as healthy as the general population, countering the stereotype of “crazy UFO witnesses.”

Berliner emphasizes the credibility of the witnesses involved in the Roswell case, noting the variety of firsthand and secondhand accounts. He highlights the importance of the caliber and behavior of these witnesses in establishing the veracity of the incident.

Berliner mentions that there are over a dozen firsthand witnesses and many more secondhand witnesses to the Roswell incident. These witnesses include people who saw the wreckage, were involved in transporting it, and those who claim to have seen alien bodies at different military bases. Despite numerous reports of other UFO crashes, Berliner points out that none have been investigated to the same extent or have the same level of substantiation as the Roswell case.

When asked about the nature of what crashed in Roswell, Berliner firmly believes it was extraterrestrial, based on witness descriptions and the lack of conventional materials in the wreckage. He dismisses alternative explanations like balloon airplanes or rockets, stating that the materials found at the crash site were vastly different from any known aeronautical materials.

Berliner also discusses the speculation surrounding the current location of any recovered alien bodies, acknowledging various rumors but admitting he has no concrete knowledge about their whereabouts. He remains open to the possibility that parts of the wreckage might be in private hands but does not have definitive evidence to confirm this.

Berliner acknowledges that it’s plausible for someone involved in the cleanup of a UFO crash, like the one at Roswell, to have pocketed a piece of the wreckage. However, he mentions that while there have been stories of people seeing scraps of material from the crash, none have been verified.

Art Bell then brings up a new study reported by the Associated Press, stating that people who report seeing UFOs or extraterrestrial beings are psychologically as healthy as the general population. This study challenges the stereotype that such individuals are prone to fantastical thinking or psychological issues.

The conversation shifts as Art Bell shares his personal experience of witnessing a UFO. He describes seeing a large, silent, triangular object with lights, floating above him in a rural area near Las Vegas. Bell speculates whether the object could be a secret government project, given its proximity to Area 51, and notes that such technology is far beyond anything publicly known.

Berliner responds by acknowledging the possibility that advanced aircraft or technologies could be developed by aerospace companies without public knowledge. He remains cautious about jumping to conclusions regarding alien technology’s involvement in these advancements. Berliner also contemplates what might have been learned from the Roswell crash, speculating that if alien technology was recovered, it could have influenced subsequent technological developments, though evidence for this remains speculative.

Berliner notes that Velcro appeared shortly after the Roswell incident and its invention story might not fully explain its development. Similarly, he points out that the transistor emerged soon after the crash, with some historical accounts suggesting it was ‘discovered’ rather than invented, indicating it might have been based on pre-existing, possibly alien, technology.

Art Bell brings up the advancement of semiconductor technology, questioning whether it was a logical progression from previous technology or a significant leap that could suggest extraterrestrial influence. Berliner admits that he is not an expert in this area but agrees that it’s a question worth exploring.

Regarding the UFO and alien phenomena, Berliner expresses almost complete conviction in their reality, citing the vast number of consistent sightings and abduction reports as compelling evidence. He does not see any clear evidence of malevolent intent behind these occurrences, noting that any incidents of harm or loss, like the disappearance of military pilots during UFO intercepts, do not necessarily imply hostile actions by extraterrestrials.

Art Bell then prepares to open the phone lines for listeners to interact with Berliner, reminding the audience that the show is sponsored by the Bigelow Foundation. He provides contact information for listeners to reach out to the foundation with inquiries or comments.

Art takes calls from listeners, allowing them to interact with Don Berliner. The conversation covers a range of UFO-related topics:

1. Validity of Whitley Strieber’s Experiences: A caller asks about the authenticity of experiences described in Whitley Strieber’s book “Communion” and other similar accounts. Berliner suggests that Strieber’s experiences align with many others reported worldwide, indicating a likelihood of their occurrence. He notes that while there’s no scientific theory to validate these experiences, they represent something new and different.
2. Female Aliens: Another caller inquires about the existence of female aliens. Berliner confirms that there have been reports of female aliens, though in some cases, the reasons for perceiving them as female were unclear.
3. Aliens Among Us: When asked about the possibility of aliens living discreetly among humans, Berliner expresses skepticism. He assumes ongoing alien activities, like abductions, but doubts the presence of aliens indistinguishable from humans.
4. Direct Alien Disclosure: A caller raises the scenario of an alien spacecraft openly revealing itself to the public, bypassing government disclosure. Berliner acknowledges this as a possibility but notes it’s up to the aliens, and there’s no way to predict or influence such an event. He differentiates between government control of information and control over alien activities.
5. Public Reaction to Open Alien Presence: Art Bell rephrases a caller’s question, asking Berliner how he thinks society would react if an alien spacecraft appeared visibly above a city, undeniable to the public and the media. This hypothetical situation raises questions about the societal and global response to incontrovertible evidence of extraterrestrial life.
6. Reaction to an Obvious UFO Presence: Berliner speculates that public reactions to a visible UFO could range from disbelief and denial to panic or intrigue. He believes that most people would not be bothered unless the UFO appeared directly threatening.
7. Alien Tunneling Theories: A caller inquires about theories of aliens creating underground tunnels. Berliner is skeptical of these theories, emphasizing the need for evidence to lend credibility to such claims.
8. Historical UFO Sightings: Another caller shares a story of her great great grandfather witnessing an unidentified flying object in 1897. Berliner acknowledges the existence of reports from the 1897 airship wave, noting that some reports were fabrications by newspaper reporters, but others remain unexplained.
9. Longevity of the UFO Phenomenon: When asked about the history of UFO phenomena, Berliner suggests that while it is difficult to trace back more than 100 years due to vague records and changing languages, there have been peculiar sightings in the sky dating back at least 150 years.
10. Location of the Roswell Crash Site: A caller questions the exact location of the Roswell crash site, mentioning a discrepancy between the plains of San Agustin and the vicinity of Corona. Berliner doesn’t explicitly resolve this question but acknowledges the ongoing debate and interest in pinpointing the precise location.
11. Corona and San Agustin Crash Sites: Berliner discusses two separate crashes: one near Corona and the other in the Plains of San Agustin. He expresses more confidence in the Corona crash due to better evidence and more reliable witnesses. The San Agustin crash’s main eyewitness, Gerald Anderson, is no longer considered reliable, casting doubt on the details of that incident.
12. Questionable Reliability of Witnesses: Berliner touches on the difficulty of verifying the truthfulness of UFO witnesses. He mentions Gerald Anderson, whose detailed accounts of the San Agustin crash initially seemed credible, but later actions and statements raised doubts about his reliability.
13. MJ-12 Documents and Disinformation: The conversation shifts to the infamous MJ-12 documents. Berliner suggests that while they might not be entirely genuine, they are close enough to the truth that it’s challenging to definitively label them as a hoax. He proposes that the documents, even if partially fabricated, could still contain elements of truth about the government’s knowledge of UFOs.
14. Abductee Scars and Disinformation: A caller brings up a forensic investigator’s claim that scars on abductees show patterns similar to crop circles, and cautions that aliens might be spreading disinformation. Berliner agrees that the information obtained from alleged abductees is often nonsensical, but whether this constitutes deliberate disinformation remains unknown.
15. Crop Circles and Animal Mutilations: Art Bell asks Berliner about his thoughts on crop circles and animal mutilations. While Berliner does not delve deeply into these topics, he acknowledges their complexity and the ongoing investigations by researchers like Linda Moulton Howe.
16. Crop Circles and UFOs: Berliner discusses the possible connection between crop circles and UFOs. While acknowledging frequent UFO sightings in areas with crop circles, he does not see a direct connection and considers crop circles an independent phenomenon.
17. Animal Mutilations: Regarding animal mutilations, Berliner expresses skepticism about linking them directly to UFOs, noting the lack of substantial evidence to support a connection.
18. Semiconductor Technology and Transistors: A caller contributes information about the development of semiconductor technology and transistors, suggesting it was a result of logical and well-researched progression. Berliner agrees but also mentions off-the-record comments from intelligence community members hinting at extraterrestrial influences on such technologies.
19. Government Secrecy and Intelligence Community: Berliner discusses how highly classified information is compartmentalized within the government, explaining why some intelligence personnel might attend UFO lectures to learn what the private community has discovered.
20. Alien Encounters – Friends or Enemies?: In response to a question about whether aliens should be considered friends or enemies, Berliner opines that they treat humans more like laboratory animals, showing neither friendship nor hostility. He suggests that aliens use humans for their purposes without emotional attachment.
21. Varieties of Alien Appearances: Addressing the diversity in alien appearances, Berliner notes that while the most commonly reported type is the “little big-headed gray” aliens, other types, including human-like and hybrid forms, have also been described.
22. Variety of Alien Appearances: Berliner acknowledges the diversity in reported alien appearances, noting that witnesses describe not only the commonly known “little gray guys” but also human-like and other bizarre forms. The significance of these varied descriptions remains unclear.
23. Face on Mars and NASA’s Response: A caller brings up the famous “Face on Mars” and questions NASA’s reluctance to investigate it further. Berliner suggests that NASA might fear public ridicule, similar to the fears of UFO witnesses and abductees. He believes the initial photographs of the “Face” are intriguing but is hesitant to conclude any “monkey business” without more evidence.
24. Pyramids and Ancient Astronauts: Another caller inquires about the possibility of ancient astronauts influencing early civilizations, specifically regarding pyramids in Egypt and Mesoamerica. Berliner cautions against jumping to conclusions, noting that while some ancient artworks could be interpreted as depicting spacecraft or aliens, such interpretations are highly speculative without additional information.
25. Religious Interpretations and UFOs: A listener references Biblical prophecy in relation to possible alien activities, pondering whether these could be interpreted as signs of deception mentioned in religious texts. Berliner avoids delving into religious interpretations, emphasizing the need for evidence.
26. Aliens as Human Creators and Genetic Interests: Responding to a question about aliens being humanity’s creators, Berliner acknowledges it as a possibility but highlights the lack of evidence. He also discusses the frequent focus on the human reproductive process in abduction stories, suggesting that aliens show great interest in this area, but the reasons remain uncertain.
27. Triangular UFO Sightings: A listener confirms Art Bell’s sighting of a triangular UFO, mentioning a similar sighting by a group in Mexico. Berliner notes that triangular UFOs have been reported elsewhere, including in Russia.
28. The Face on Mars and NASA’s Response: Berliner comments on the “Face on Mars” images and NASA’s cautious approach to investigating them. He suggests that NASA might be wary of public ridicule and acknowledges the intriguing nature of the initial photographs.
29. Ancient Astronauts and Pyramids: Another caller questions the possibility of ancient astronauts influencing early civilizations, particularly regarding pyramids. Berliner advises against jumping to conclusions and emphasizes the need for more information to interpret ancient artworks that might depict spacecraft or aliens.
30. Religious Interpretations of UFOs: A caller relates UFO phenomena to religious texts, speculating about possible connections. Berliner refrains from delving into religious interpretations, focusing instead on the need for evidence.
31. Aliens as Humanity’s Creators: In response to a question about aliens being humanity’s creators, Berliner acknowledges it as a possibility but highlights the lack of evidence. He also discusses the interest of aliens in the human reproductive process as reported by abductees.
32. Construction of Alien Craft: A caller inquires about the methods used to construct alien spacecraft, particularly joining materials without visible seams or bolts. Berliner admits that descriptions from those who claim to have handled wreckage suggest materials and methods unfamiliar to our current technology.
33. Alien Activities on the Moon: Addressing a question about potential alien bases or activities on the Moon, Berliner does not provide a definitive answer, citing the lack of concrete evidence.
34. Economic Challenges of Space Exploration: Berliner discusses NASA’s financial struggles, noting the difficulty in securing funding for moon missions or permanent lunar installations. He attributes the lack of progress in returning to the moon to economic constraints rather than alien activities.
35. The Philadelphia Experiment and Bermuda Triangle: A caller inquires about Berliner’s research or knowledge regarding the Philadelphia Experiment and the Bermuda Triangle. Berliner clarifies that he has not researched these topics, as his focus is primarily on UFO phenomena.
36. Luxor Hotel Light Beam as a Signal: A Las Vegas caller speculates about the Luxor Hotel’s light beam, wondering if it could be a signal or a method of hiding something in plain sight. Berliner does not comment directly on this theory, reflecting his cautious approach to unverified claims.
37. Egyptian Artifacts in the Grand Canyon: A question arises about reported Egyptian artifacts in the Grand Canyon, which Berliner is not familiar with and cannot comment on.

Art Bell concludes the interview, thanking Berliner for his insights and contributions to the discussion. The show ends with a reminder that it is sponsored by the Bigelow Foundation.