The guest, John Ronner, a journalist and author, discusses his work on angels, including his books “Do You Have a Guardian Angel?” and “The Angels of Cookeville.” Ronner shares intriguing statistics: approximately 70% of Americans believe in angels, and nearly half feel they have a personal spiritual guardian. The conversation explores various encounters and beliefs regarding angels, ranging from physical manifestations and celestial music to life-saving interventions and coincidences considered heavenly. The show aims to define what an angel is, referencing medieval philosophers who describe angels as superior, non-human spiritual beings, distinct from human spirits. This segment of the show sets the stage for a deeper exploration of the angelic phenomena and its impact on people’s lives and beliefs.
John Ronner explains that people often conflate experiences with deceased loved ones with angel encounters. While strictly speaking, these aren’t angelic visits, they can be perceived as guardian angel experiences. This highlights the subjective nature of spiritual encounters, where personal beliefs and frameworks shape how individuals interpret these experiences.
The conversation then shifts to a fascinating intersection between angelic encounters and other paranormal phenomena, like UFO sightings. This crossover suggests a broader spiritual reality encompassing various unexplained experiences. Ronner notes that people’s perceptions of encounters are heavily influenced by their religious or personal beliefs. For instance, a religious person might interpret a mysterious entity as angelic, while someone interested in UFOs might see it as extraterrestrial.
Near-death experiences (NDEs) are also discussed, particularly the recurring theme of a being of light encountered during these experiences. This being, perceived as overwhelmingly loving and wise, appears across different cultural and religious contexts, indicating a commonality in human spiritual experiences. People label this being differently, based on their cultural and religious backgrounds, yet the descriptions often align, suggesting a universal aspect to these experiences.
The conversation touches upon the possibility of life after death. Ronner, while not claiming scientific proof, believes there’s a preponderance of evidence supporting the existence of a spiritual realm. He suggests that both scientific developments, like quantum physics, and personal introspection could potentially provide insights into the nature of life beyond the physical world.
Ronner continues to explore the relationship between consciousness and reality. He discusses quantum physics and its implications for understanding the nature of the universe. Ronner explains that subatomic particles, like photons, require observation to exist and change their nature based on how they are observed. This concept, while counterintuitive, is a fundamental aspect of quantum physics and suggests a deep connection between consciousness and the physical world.
Ronner then touches upon other scientific theories that challenge materialism, the belief that only the physical world exists. He mentions the Gaia hypothesis, which posits a form of planetary intelligence, and the anthropic principle from astrophysics, suggesting a universe finely tuned for human life. These ideas, along with developments in quantum physics, are seen as undermining the strictly materialistic view of the universe.
The discussion shifts to the host, Art, sharing his observations on what he calls “the quickening” – an apparent acceleration of global events like natural disasters, political unrest, and social upheaval. Ronner connects this to a broader perspective, seeing humanity in a transitional phase akin to a “stormy adolescence,” moving towards a more mature state. He suggests that this tumultuous period could be a process of working out societal and philosophical issues, leading to a more spiritual understanding of reality.
Ronner also comments on the changing attitudes of the intellectual elite, who are moving away from strict materialism towards a more open acceptance of spiritual and metaphysical ideas. This shift is reflected in the media’s increasing attention to spiritual topics, a stark contrast to the skepticism prevalent in earlier decades.
Art reflects on his experience hosting the program and the diversity of topics he covers, emphasizing the importance of exploring existential questions such as extraterrestrial life and life after death. He acknowledges the skepticism often faced by those who delve into these areas but emphasizes their fundamental significance.
John Ronner then discusses the philosophical implications of materialism, the belief that only the physical world exists. He contrasts this with the idea of a meaningful universe where spiritual experiences are valid and significant. Ronner argues that materialism renders the universe meaningless, whereas the existence of a spiritual realm adds depth and purpose to human life.
Ronner brings up near-death experiences (NDEs) as compelling evidence of a spiritual realm. He describes the common stages of NDEs, including the out-of-body experience, the journey through a tunnel, interactions with departed loved ones, encounters with a being of light, and a life review. He notes that these experiences often lead to profound insights, with seemingly trivial life events gaining significant importance from a higher perspective.
Ronner also challenges the materialistic explanations for NDEs, such as the brain releasing neurochemicals during death. He argues that these explanations don’t account for the detailed knowledge and experiences reported by people who have NDEs, especially when they describe events and conversations they couldn’t have physically witnessed.
Ronner challenges the skepticism surrounding NDEs by discussing the detailed and specific knowledge reported by people who have undergone these experiences. He emphasizes that these individuals often describe events that occurred while they were clinically dead, with no brain activity, suggesting that these experiences cannot be easily dismissed as hallucinations or guesses.
Ronner mentions Michael Sabom, an Atlanta cardiologist, and his research following Raymond Moody’s initial work on NDEs. Sabom conducted scientific studies comparing the accuracy of accounts from people who reported out-of-body experiences during clinical death with those who had no recollection. The study found that those claiming out-of-body experiences accurately described the events that occurred while they were clinically dead, unlike the control group with no recollection.
Art Bell brings up a recent episode of “60 Minutes” that featured a woman with a brain aneurysm who underwent a radical medical procedure. Her body temperature was significantly lowered, and she was clinically dead for an hour. After the surgery, as her blood was warmed and returned to her body, she revived without any external stimuli. This case prompted discussions about what happens during clinical death and whether people experience NDEs without recalling them.
Furthermore, Bell discusses an experiment conducted in an operating room to test the validity of out-of-body experiences reported during NDEs. A neon sign was placed in a position only visible to someone having an out-of-body experience. To date, no one has reported seeing the sign, raising questions about the nature and validity of these experiences.
Ronner responds by noting that while no one has reported seeing the specific neon sign, there are numerous accounts of people describing objects and events outside of their physical sight during NDEs. He suggests that the absence of reports about the neon sign does not definitively disprove NDEs, as focus during such experiences may not be on reading signs.
John Ronner presents cases that challenge the skepticism surrounding NDEs. He recounts the story of a person who, during an NDE, observed a sneaker on a window ledge of a hospital many stories up, a detail that was later verified by medical personnel. Another example shared by Ronner is of Sandy Rogers from Lebanon, Illinois. During life-saving surgery, Rogers reportedly had out-of-body experiences and gained detailed information about her relatives in other rooms, which she couldn’t have known otherwise.
These accounts are presented to counter the argument that NDEs are merely hallucinations or guesses. Despite the lack of conclusive scientific evidence, such anecdotes offer compelling support for the existence of consciousness beyond the physical body.
The conversation then shifts to angelic interventions. Ronner is asked to recount the most convincing case of angelic intervention he has encountered. He shares a story from Coatesville, a small town in Wyoming. In 1986, a highly intelligent but disturbed individual named Derrick David Gary Young, with an IQ of 181, held an elementary school hostage with a bomb. Young’s intention, as revealed in his diaries, was to demand ransom and then blow up the school, including himself, believing he would reincarnate in a new dimension. This story serves as an extreme example of the potential for human action and belief.
Another story Ronner shares is of a crane operator whose crane was on the verge of tipping over due to an unstable outrigger. A man dressed as a carpenter, who did not appear to belong on the site and wore no hard hat, alerted the operator to the danger. The operator later could not find this man and believed that he was an angel sent to prevent a disaster. This story is offered as a classic example of an angelic intervention where an angel disguises as a human to assist in a critical situation.
John Ronner discusses the concept of “angels in disguise,” where angels appear as human beings but exhibit unusual characteristics that suggest they are more than they seem. He shares examples of situations where people have been helped by mysterious figures appearing in critical moments, often with peculiar details that hint at their supernatural origin. For instance, a helper might appear out of nowhere on a deserted road, assist someone in need, and then disappear just as suddenly.
Ronner explains that these angelic figures often only reveal themselves to the person who needs help, and their presence is not noticed by others around. He relates this to the TV series “Highway to Heaven,” where the angel character, portrayed by Michael Landon, appears human and subtly influences events without directly intervening.
Addressing a question from a skeptic in Honolulu, Ronner emphasizes that spiritual experiences and encounters with angels are not exclusive to a select few. He believes that everyone is immersed in a spiritual realm and affected by it, but the challenge lies in recognizing and paying attention to these experiences. He discusses the concept of synchronicity, or meaningful coincidences, as a common way in which the spiritual realm interacts with our daily lives.
Ronner also highlights the importance of intuition or strong hunches as another way we experience the influence of the spiritual realm. He recounts a story from Wisconsin where a mother felt a sudden, inexplicable dread for her sons’ safety. Her intuition proved to be correct, as her sons later returned home pale-faced, recounting a terrifying encounter where their car was surrounded by an armed gang. Despite the car being hit with baseball bats and guns, the windows did not break, which the mother and sons attributed to some form of divine protection.
John Ronner discusses various accounts of angelic interventions and paranormal experiences. He starts by mentioning a report from the Oklahoma City bombing where an individual claimed that an angel led him out of the wreckage. This leads to a broader discussion about heightened spiritual and paranormal activity during times of great disaster.
Ronner then recounts the story of David Booth, a Cincinnati office worker, who had recurring nightmares about an aviation disaster. Over ten nights, he dreamed of an American Airlines DC-10 crashing in a fireball. Despite contacting the FAA, Booth couldn’t provide enough specific details to prevent the tragedy. In a related incident, actress Lindsey Wagner felt a strong intuition not to board American Airlines Flight 191, which tragically crashed, killing all onboard. These stories highlight the mysterious nature of intuition and premonitions.
Art Bell interjects with his own apprehensions about flying, discussing the importance of trusting one’s intuition. Ronner agrees, noting that powerful intuitive experiences usually leave no doubt in a person’s mind.
The conversation then shifts to a listener named Diane from Southern California, who shares her experience with a guardian angel named Flora. After spending time with Flora, Diane no longer needed scientific proof of angels as the information Flora provided came true over the following months. Diane asks if the blue-white flashes of light she occasionally sees could be an indication of an angel’s presence. Ronner responds that such phenomena are often interpreted as signs of a departed loved one or a superior spiritual being.
John Ronner discusses various forms in which angelic presences or spiritual experiences manifest. He explains that these manifestations can range from shimmering columns of rainbow light, balls of light, to human forms surrounded by a bright halo. This variety in appearances suggests that the spiritual realm can make its presence known in multiple ways, often tailored to the individual’s perception.
Ronner then touches on the topic of ghosts, differentiating them from angels. While ghosts are considered to be spirits of deceased humans, angels are viewed as higher-order beings. He notes that interactions with ghosts are usually fleeting and often occur around the time of death, providing comfort or closure. These encounters can reassure the living that life continues after death and that their loved ones are not suffering.
He shares stories of widows who felt their late husbands continued to interact with them after death, sometimes even helping in tangible ways, like making repairs around the house or assisting in emergencies. These ongoing relationships, though less common, indicate a continued guardianship or connection beyond death.
Ronner references a survey by Andrew Greeley, a Roman Catholic priest and sociologist, which found that a significant percentage of Americans, including over half of widows and widowers, reported feeling in touch with someone who had died. These numbers suggest that experiences of contact with the deceased are not uncommon and have increased over time.
The segment ends with the host, Art Bell, preparing to take phone calls from listeners, indicating a shift to a more interactive part of the show. Ronner briefly addresses the possibility of photographing angels, noting that while he hasn’t encountered such photos, the phenomenon of spirit photography has a long and checkered history, with some validity despite instances of fraud.
Ronner explains that people from various backgrounds, including traditionally religious, secular, and metaphysically oriented individuals, report experiences with angels. He notes the global interest in angels, mentioning that one of his books was translated into Japanese, reflecting a broader cultural fascination with spiritual beings.
Ronner then discusses angelic appearances on battlefields, a phenomenon where soldiers report seeing angels, saints, or other spiritual figures during combat. He suggests that the intense stress of battle might put the mind in an altered state of consciousness, making it more receptive to other realities. He recounts a famous incident from World War I where soldiers reported seeing angels during a retreat from Mons, Belgium. Another example from World War II involves a soldier feeling a calming presence and hearing a voice reassuring him during a strafing attack.
The conversation turns to the difficult question of why angels seem to intervene in some situations but not in others, such as the Oklahoma City bombing or plane crashes where many innocent lives are lost. Ronner admits there is no satisfactory answer to this question, which has been asked for thousands of years. He suggests that some events are the result of human actions and choices, and others propose a metaphysical theory that souls choose certain life experiences before incarnating, including experiencing tragedy.
A caller from San Diego asks Ronner about his belief in a supreme being. Ronner shares his journey from agnosticism to a belief that materialist explanations for everything are insufficient. He cites the near-death experience as a significant factor that influenced his belief in a spiritual realm beyond the material world.
The conversation then shifts to a caller who shares a personal experience where he believes a guardian angel intervened at a pivotal moment in his life. He recounts how, as a teenager, he was about to commit a robbery but was stopped by the sight of a policeman. This incident turned his life around, leading him to a successful career in engineering. Ronner reflects on this story as an example of how a guardian angel or a meaningful coincidence can have a profound impact on a person’s life path.
A caller questions the biblical stance on contacting spirits, and Ronner acknowledges that some biblical writers advised against it, possibly due to the potential for misuse or misunderstanding.
Ronner discusses the concept of intuitive living, sharing how intuition can guide decisions and actions, such as in motorcycle riding. A caller then recounts a story where a famous entertainer was deeply moved by a stranger’s message, which later turned out to be inexplicable as the person described did not exist according to the venue’s staff.
Another caller brings up urban legends like the hitchhiker or Gabriel’s horn, and Ronner admits he has not personally interviewed anyone with these experiences. He suggests that while such stories are widespread, they often lack verifiable sources.
Art Bell and Ronner then hear from a caller in Seattle who identifies as agnostic and inquires about the nature of angels. This leads to a discussion about the diversity of beliefs and experiences related to spiritual beings.
The show also touches on a story about a missionary in a South American jungle who, along with his family, was threatened by local warriors. Miraculously, the warriors withdrew without causing harm. The chief later revealed that he saw the hut surrounded by an army in bright white robes holding swords, interpreted as angelic protection.
A caller shares a story about her grandfather who was injured in a mining accident, which her mother had foreseen in a dream. John Ronner discusses this and similar premonitions, referencing studies that suggest people might subconsciously sense impending tragedies. He mentions Ian Stevenson’s study on premonitions related to the Titanic sinking and W.A. Cox’s research showing a drop in train ridership on days of accidents, suggesting subconscious accident avoidance.
The conversation then shifts to discussing the “dark side” of near-death experiences (NDEs). Ronner acknowledges that while many NDEs are positive, there are also negative experiences, particularly among those who have lived more problematic lives. He recounts the story of a prisoner in San Quentin who, during a near-death experience, experienced a painful life review, feeling the negative consequences of his actions.
Ronner suggests that someone like Saddam Hussein, responsible for immense suffering, would experience a profoundly negative life review, empathetically feeling the pain he caused others. He also describes a “drab gray zone” seen by some near-death experiencers, where spirits appear sad and burdened, possibly reflecting their earthly troubles.
Ronner mentions instances where people, particularly those with unresolved issues or addictions, remain attached to the physical world after death. He recounts a near-death experience where a woman observed a spirit in a gray zone, appearing as a gray-haired woman who seemed to be unable to let go of her earthly concerns.
Ronner emphasizes that spiritualism suggests we carry our virtues and baggage into the afterlife. If someone has too much “baggage,” they may remain earthbound, unable to ascend to a higher spiritual state. He notes that not all NDEs are positive, with some individuals experiencing negative or hellish experiences, particularly if they have caused significant suffering in their lives.
The conversation then turns to the idea of discerning spirits. Ronner points out that not all spiritual entities are benevolent and recalls the New Testament’s advice on testing the validity of spirits and experiences. He mentions Ignatius of Loyola’s system for discerning spirits, emphasizing the importance of evaluating the effects of spiritual experiences on one’s life.
A caller from Washington warns listeners about evil angels causing mischief, leading Ronner to discuss the idea of discerning between good and bad spiritual influences. He suggests that one should evaluate whether these experiences lead to greater spirituality and clarity or confusion and negativity.
Another caller proposes a grand experiment involving mass meditation, to which Ronner responds by discussing the potential impact of collective spiritual consciousness. He cites the peace initiatives around the Christmas season and the fall of communism as examples where mass meditation might have subtly influenced global events.
Ronner addresses a caller’s suggestion about meditating for negative outcomes, like causing harm to Saddam Hussein. He emphasizes that angels, being superior beings, cannot be manipulated or forced to act against their nature, which is typically understood to be benevolent.
Ronner also talks about the importance of discerning spirits and not blindly trusting every spiritual encounter. He references New Testament teachings and Ignatius of Loyola’s system for discerning spirits, which involves evaluating the effects of spiritual experiences on one’s life.
The show then hears a story from a listener about a tragic accident involving her brother and the impact of this event on her family. The listener describes how her brother’s death reinforced her belief in an afterlife and the ongoing influence of those who have passed on. Ronner responds empathetically, highlighting the significance of such personal stories in understanding the spiritual realm.
Art Bell prompts Ronner to share his contact information for listeners interested in sharing their stories or learning more about his books. Ronner provides his mailing address and mentions upcoming speaking engagements. He talks about his book “Do You Have a Guardian Angel?” and its journalistic approach to the subject of angels, aiming to provide objective information rather than dictate beliefs.
A caller from El Paso, Texas, brings up the concept of the light at the end of the tunnel during near-death experiences, questioning if it’s a trick. This leads to a discussion about the authenticity of the being of light encountered in such experiences. Ronner mentions that some New Testament writers warned about the devil disguising himself as an angel of light, causing fear and trepidation about these experiences. He also recalls the conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus as a counterexample of a positive encounter with a being of light.
Ronner emphasizes the importance of spiritual discernment in evaluating metaphysical experiences, suggesting that one should gauge these experiences by their impact on personal growth and direction.
A caller from Florence, Oregon, shares his belief in guardian angels, recounting personal experiences where he felt guided and protected by them. He speculates whether his deceased wife’s guardian angel might have been involved in these interventions. Ronner responds by discussing the common belief that each person is assigned a guardian angel at birth, which stays with them until death. He also touches on the idea that some individuals may be more attuned to perceiving spiritual realities than others.
Ronner addresses the concept of deathbed visions, indicating that people nearing death often report sensing the presence of someone comforting them, which has not been discussed in the show yet. This topic highlights the profound and often personal nature of spiritual experiences, especially at critical moments like near-death or deathbed situations.
Ronner explains that many dying patients experience a sudden surge of energy and engage in animated conversations with unseen figures, believed to escort them into the afterlife. He shares an example of the famous tenor James Moore, who, on his deathbed, excitedly recognized his deceased mother coming to take him to the beyond.
Art Bell reflects on the importance of being open-minded to these kinds of stories and experiences, encouraging listeners to consider them thoughtfully. Ronner reiterates the need for discernment in spiritual experiences, emphasizing the importance of judging them based on their impact on one’s life.
The show then hears from callers sharing personal stories and asking about various spiritual phenomena. One caller from El Paso, Texas, mentions radionics, a concept involving disembodied spirits interacting with magnetic fields. Another caller from San Francisco speaks about angelic occurrences in a local church, prompting a discussion on the power of belief in facilitating spiritual experiences. Ronner suggests that where belief is strong, such as in churches, angelic or spiritual phenomena are more likely to occur.
A caller from Norman, Oklahoma, shares her spiritual awakening and experiences with conflicting beliefs about angels and the afterlife. T
Art Bell thanks John Ronner for his insights on angels and spiritual experiences. Bell expresses appreciation for the deep and varied discussion, indicating the show’s commitment to exploring areas of human experience that are not easily categorized or understood. He acknowledges the time constraints and the vast interest in these topics among listeners.
Art Bell then provides information for listeners who wish to obtain a tape of this program or access other materials, sharing contact details for their bulletin board service and how to order recordings.
The show ends with a reminder of its dedication to examining the less tangible aspects of human experience, encouraging listeners to join again for future discussions on “Dreamland.”