1994-06-01- Heber Jentzsch – Church of Scientology

Art Bell interviews Reverend Heber Jentzsch, discussing the nature and principles of Scientology. Jentzsch explains Scientology as an applied religious philosophy that views man as a spiritual being distinct from the mind and body. He emphasizes that Scientology combines Eastern spiritual concepts with Western technology to help individuals understand themselves and improve their lives. Unlike traditional belief systems or dogmas, Scientology is described as practical and scientific, focusing on removing past traumas to achieve personal goals. Art expresses understanding of the mind-body connection and inquires if Scientology is a religion. Jentzsch confirms this, highlighting Scientology’s recognition by the Internal Revenue Service and its longstanding conflict with the IRS, which stemmed from opposition by the American Medical and Psychiatric Associations to L. Ron Hubbard’s ideas in his book “Dianetics.” Jentzsch also discusses the concept of the reactive mind in Scientology, which stores painful experiences and can unconsciously affect an individual’s behavior.

Jentzsch shares a case study highlighting the psychosomatic effects of the mind, where a man regained his ability to walk after revisiting and resolving a traumatic event through Dianetic techniques. He explains that Scientology’s effectiveness goes beyond the placebo effect due to its precise technology for dealing with the subconscious mind. Art then inquires about the religious aspects of Scientology, specifically its teachings about God. Jentzsch clarifies that while Scientology acknowledges a supreme being, it does not impose a specific dogma about God, allowing followers to retain their individual beliefs. This approach aligns with the Buddhist tradition of understanding oneself as a spiritual being first. Regarding the afterlife, Jentzsch mentions the concept of returning to life in a new body, a belief more aligned with Eastern traditions.

Jentzsch also recounts his personal journey in Scientology, leading to his presidency of the Church of Scientology International since 1981. His appointment was based on his long-term commitment and competence within the organization. Art humorously probes about the process of becoming a president in Scientology, comparing it to the papal selection in Catholicism, to which Jentzsch responds by emphasizing the role of trust and competence in Scientology leadership, rather than divine appointment.

Jentzsch elaborates on his educational background and the extensive training he underwent to become a minister in Scientology, equating it to a four-year college major. He emphasizes the rigor and precision involved in learning Scientology’s counseling techniques.

Jentzsch also provides insights into the global reach and growth of Scientology, noting over 8 million members across 102 countries, with a strong presence in Europe, particularly in Russia and Germany. He attributes the appeal of Scientology in Russia to the scientific approach it offers to spirituality, especially after decades of suppressed religious expression.

Art Bell questions the perception of Scientology among traditional religions in America. Jentzsch acknowledges past controversies but notes a significant shift in recent years, especially with Scientology’s involvement in the Religious Freedom Restoration Act alongside mainstream religious groups. This collaboration highlights a growing acceptance and recognition of Scientology as a legitimate religious movement.

Jentzsch proudly mentions Scientology’s rigorous scrutiny and eventual recognition by the Internal Revenue Service as a religious and charitable organization, signifying its establishment as a mainstream religion. He highlights his work with various religious groups and his involvement in the American Conference on Religious Movements, further demonstrating Scientology’s engagement with diverse faith communities.

entzsch cites the report by Nancy Ammerman, part of the Justice Department’s investigation, which criticized the antireligious group activities and the failure of federal agencies to use religious experts for negotiations. He expresses concern about the reliance on psychiatrists and the influence of individuals with extreme animosity towards the Davidians, which complicated the situation.

Jentzsch also discusses Scientology’s global perspective, sharing his recent experiences in Europe, where people were appalled by the Waco incident. He draws historical parallels, mentioning the burning of witches in England, to illustrate how religious hysteria can lead to tragic outcomes. He emphasizes the importance of religious plurality and respect in America, contrasting it with the singular church system in England.

Discussing Scientology’s inclusivity, Jentzsch states that it welcomes members from various faiths and even those with no faith, as it aids in self-understanding and fostering a sense of helping others. He highlights Scientology’s successful programs for drug addiction rehabilitation, implying the practical applications of its teachings.

Addressing a sensitive topic, Art Bell inquires about Scientology’s stance on homosexuality, in light of the then-recent comments by the Surgeon General regarding the inclusion of lesbians in the Girl Scouts. Jentzsch responds that Scientology does not dictate sexual preferences, indicating a liberal and individualistic approach to personal choices in this matter.

Jentzsch comments on the problem of drug abuse in society, emphasizing Scientology’s efforts to handle it, particularly through rehabilitation programs. He expresses skepticism about legalizing drugs, comparing the potential consequences to the current issues with alcohol abuse in America.

The conversation then turns to the issue of prison overcrowding, with Jentzsch noting the high number of incarcerations in the U.S., particularly for drug-related crimes. He suggests that instead of criminalizing drug use, society should focus on effective rehabilitation programs, citing Scientology’s success in this area with a high success rate in helping individuals stay off drugs.

Jentzsch also discusses the issue of government transparency, particularly in relation to the government’s history of radiation testing. He shares his personal experience as a teenager in Utah, being affected by radiation fallout from government tests. He criticizes the government’s lack of transparency and accountability in these matters, underscoring the serious health consequences for those exposed.

Art and Reverend Heber Jentzsch turns towards the government’s involvement in covert activities, particularly concerning biological and chemical weapons. Jentzsch shares his personal experiences and observations from Utah, where he witnessed the devastating effects of radiation fallout on the local population, including the premature deaths of many individuals. He criticizes the government for not disclosing the dangers and the extent of destruction caused by their testing.

Jentzsch then delves into the topic of AIDS, pondering its origins and suggesting that it could be a sophisticated disease, possibly linked to government experiments. He recounts a story from the late 1970s about a woman whose husband worked on biological weapons at Edgewood, Maryland, and died due to a complete breakdown of his immune system, a condition Jentzsch likens to AIDS.

The discussion shifts to the CIA’s involvement in developing biological weapons targeting ethnic minorities, referencing specific incidents in the 1950s where the CIA allegedly engineered a whooping cough virus epidemic in Florida. Jentzsch expresses deep concern about the ongoing development of such weapons and the lack of transparency and accountability from the government.

Art Bell asks if AIDS could be a biological weapon that accidentally got released, a theory Jentzsch doesn’t dismiss outright, citing the extensive documentation he’s seen on the government’s experimentation with diseases targeting specific groups.

Reverend Heber Jentzsch and Art discuss various instances where the U.S. government conducted experiments on the public without their knowledge. Jentzsch recounts several such events, including an experiment in San Francisco where pathogens were released to study their spread and impact. This experiment, he notes, caused respiratory problems and even a documented death. He also mentions a similar incident in Georgia, where mosquitoes were released in an African-American housing area, leading to various health issues and stillborn babies.

Jentzsch criticizes the government’s lack of transparency and disregard for public safety in these experiments. He shares his personal encounter with the negative effects of government spraying in California, which resulted in respiratory issues for his son. He points out the larger problem of such activities, including the use of Agent Orange and its dioxin component in Vietnam and later in California.

Art Bell transitions the conversation to the topic of potential biological warfare and government secrecy. Jentzsch reads excerpts from CIA documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, revealing the development and testing of various biological materials for covert purposes, including the manipulation of human behavior and germ warfare. He expresses concern about the long-standing foundation of such activities and the ethical implications of genetically altering pathogens for warfare.

Jentzsch raises alarm about the idea of genetically altering populations, citing a proposal by the National Institute of Mental Health to genetically modify African Americans as a solution to crime, an idea he vehemently criticizes. He emphasizes the importance of public awareness and action in response to these ethical and moral challenges posed by government actions and scientific advancements.

Reverend Heber Jentzsch and Art continue their discussion about societal issues, with a focus on drug problems and moral issues in the United States. Jentzsch emphasizes the role of churches in addressing these problems, as he believes the government’s efforts are insufficient, particularly in their handling of drug-related issues.

Jentzsch highlights Scientology’s contributions in communities like Compton, where they’ve implemented educational programs and helped individuals overcome drug addiction and gang involvement. He stresses the importance of such initiatives in other cities, underscoring the need for practical solutions to societal problems.

Responding to a question about the portrayal of L. Ron Hubbard in books like “Messiah or Mad Man,” Jentzsch attributes such characterizations to critics’ animosities and disagreements with Scientology’s stances, especially on drugs and psychiatric practices.

Addressing a query about Scientology’s financial status, Jentzsch denies that the organization is worth billions but acknowledges its growth and affluence. He defends the organization’s wealth by pointing out its contributions to community assistance and drug rehabilitation programs. He also mentions that Scientology offers many free services and is not reliant on government funding, with its members becoming more affluent and contributing more to the tax base.

Jentzsch then shares a toll-free number for listeners interested in more information about Scientology or Dianetics. The conversation shifts to listener calls, with a question about the afterlife and Scientology’s beliefs. Jentzsch explains that Scientology does not strictly adhere to conventional concepts of heaven and hell, but rather focuses on the individual’s experiences and choices, suggesting that people come back to Earth after death. He also touches upon the concept of evil, relating it to the reactive mind in Scientology’s teachings.

One caller inquires about Scientology’s views on faith healing. Jentzsch acknowledges the existence and effectiveness of faith healing, emphasizing that in Scientology, they focus on helping individuals help themselves, particularly regarding psychosomatic issues.

A caller from San Francisco brings up Scientology’s relationship with Erhard Seminars Training (EST), founded by Werner Erhard. Jentzsch explains that Erhard admitted to using principles from Scientology in the early days of EST. He suggests that any animosity from Erhard towards Scientology might stem from legal and personal issues Erhard faced, including allegations of tax evasion and personal misconduct. Jentzsch emphasizes that Scientology is a precise technology and altering it makes it less effective.

Another caller from San Diego comments on Scientology’s involvement in various social causes, like opposing the American Medical Association and government chemical experimentation. The caller seems curious about any affiliations Scientology may have had in the past or present related to these causes. Jentzsch’s response to this question is not included in this segment of the transcript.

A caller inquires about Scientology’s affiliations with Reverend Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church. Jentzsch acknowledges meeting Moon and mentions their collaboration on human rights issues, particularly regarding instances of kidnapping and unlawful detention. He emphasizes the right to religious freedom in America, including for the Unification Church.

Addressing allegations of mind manipulation, Jentzsch asserts that these claims have been judicially invalidated and condemned by major psychological and sociological associations. He stresses that Scientology encourages individuals to think for themselves and make their own decisions about their involvement in the religion.

Responding to another caller’s question about the fear of God, Jentzsch shares his personal view that fear of God is unnecessary for those living a life of service and assistance to others. He states that individual beliefs about God are a personal matter in Scientology, which acknowledges a supreme being but doesn’t enforce a specific dogma.

Regarding cancer, AIDS, and biological warfare, Jentzsch admits he hasn’t conducted research into solutions for these issues. He mentions receiving information about various therapies but cannot vouch for them. He clarifies that Dianetics focuses on the mind and psychosomatic illnesses, and physical illnesses should be treated by medical professionals.

A caller from San Diego accuses Scientology of financial exploitation, claiming a friend lost everything due to the organization’s financial demands. Jentzsch doesn’t directly address this accusation but reiterates the value of Scientology’s work in helping individuals. The caller identifies as nondenominational, expressing a belief in Jesus Christ, differing from Scientology’s approach to religious belief.

One caller questions the financial aspects of Scientology, to which Jentzsch responds that while there are fixed donations for certain studies and counseling, the organization also offers free services. He compares Scientology’s financial practices to those of other religious organizations and emphasizes individual choice in financial contributions to the church.

Another caller brings up a popular rumor that L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology on a bet to create a religion. Jentzsch refutes this claim, citing affidavits and court cases where such allegations were disproven. He asserts that Hubbard never made such a statement and emphasizes that Hubbard bequeathed his entire estate to the church upon his passing.

Jentzsch also addresses a question about Scientology’s view of Jesus Christ. He affirms that Scientology believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God and refers to Christ’s teachings in the Bible about seeking the truth, knowing the truth, and the truth setting one free.

The segment concludes with Jentzsch reiterating the importance of individuals making their own decisions about their beliefs and practices in Scientology.

One caller asks how Scientology reconciles Jesus Christ’s statement that he is the only way to God with its teachings. Jentzsch responds that Scientology leaves it to the individual to decide their beliefs about the Supreme Being and emphasizes the importance of personal morality, which cannot be legislated.

Another caller inquires about the Urantia Book, a work that appeared around the same time as “Dianetics.” Jentzsch admits he’s not familiar with the Urantia Book but highlights the success of “Dianetics,” which has been a bestseller and spurred the creation of numerous Dianetics groups.

Addressing whether one can benefit from Scientology by just reading “Dianetics” without formally joining the church, Jentzsch confirms that it is possible. He notes that many people worldwide have used Dianetics in their lives without ever stepping into a Scientology church.

A caller from San Diego mentions receiving a substantial amount of literature from Scientology after being placed on a mailing list. Jentzsch shares his own experience of being on a Scientology mailing list and how it led to his involvement in the church.

One caller inquires if Scientology will produce figures of significant stature, akin to saints or enlightened individuals in other religions, and whether it leads to realization or merely fits into Western society. Jentzsch explains that Scientology believes in the potential for enlightenment, referencing the state of Clear, where an individual no longer has a reactive mind. This state, he says, aligns with the concept of enlightenment in Eastern traditions.

Regarding the concept of evolution, Jentzsch expresses skepticism. He questions the scientific evidence for evolution, including the missing links in the evolutionary chain, and expresses doubt about the spontaneous assembly of life from molecules. He suggests that life seems to follow a plan, which he doesn’t believe is explained by evolution.

A caller from San Diego asks about the Urantia Book and its relation to Dianetics. Jentzsch is not familiar with the Urantia Book but highlights the success of Dianetics since its release. He confirms that individuals can benefit from Scientology by reading Dianetics without formally joining the church.

Another caller challenges the claim that L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology as a bet. Jentzsch refutes this, stating that such allegations have been disproven in court and are based on false claims made by others.

The interview concludes with Art Bell expressing appreciation for the wide-ranging conversation and inviting Jentzsch to return for future discussions. Bell then transitions from the interview with Reverend Heber Jentzsch to discussing various current events and societal issues.

The show covers a range of topics, including:

1. The concept of “family-sensitive news”: The idea of blocking or filtering news content that shows violence, particularly in Miami where violence is affecting tourism.
2. Paula Jones: Her decision to appear on talk shows to discuss her sexual harassment allegations against then-President Bill Clinton.
3. Jamaican involvement in reviewing Haitian refugee claims: The U.S. paying for a program in Jamaica to assess Haitian refugee claims.
4. The Rodney King case: A federal jury decision not to award punitive damages to Rodney King in a lawsuit against Los Angeles police officers.
5. Dan Rostenkowski’s legal issues: The controversy surrounding his indictment and his dispute with his lawyer.
6. Jocelyn Elders’ statements: The Surgeon General’s comments on social issues such as the inclusion of lesbians in the Girl Scouts and the legalization of drugs.
7. A possible UN global income tax: A report about the United Nations proposing a tax on wealthy countries to aid poorer nations, which Bell questions and invites listeners’ opinions on.

Art Bell invites listeners to share their thoughts on these various topics, encouraging a broad discussion on the current affairs and societal issues of the time. The discussion includes:

1. Family-Sensitive News: Bell explores the idea of whether local stations should adopt a policy of broadcasting family-friendly news that filters out violent content, especially given the impact of violent news on tourism in cities like Miami.
2. Paula Jones Case: Bell touches on Paula Jones’ decision to discuss her sexual harassment allegations against President Bill Clinton on talk shows.
3. Jamaican Role in Haitian Refugee Claims: The U.S. will use Jamaica as a staging ground to review Haitian refugee claims.
4. Rodney King Case: A federal jury’s decision not to award punitive damages to Rodney King and a juror’s claim that the verdict was racially motivated.
5. Jocelyn Elders’ Statements: Surgeon General Jocelyn Elders’ controversial comments on social issues, including the inclusion of lesbians in the Girl Scouts and the legalization of drugs.
6. UN Global Income Tax Proposal: A report about the UN’s proposal for a global income tax from wealthy countries to aid poorer nations, sparking a debate on the show.
7. Listener Calls: Bell takes calls from listeners on various topics, including government spending, FEMA’s response to the Northridge earthquake, and conspiracy theories about FEMA’s role in U.S. governance.
8. FEMA’s Role in Disaster Relief: A caller who worked for FEMA as a helpline operator shares insights about FEMA’s operations during the Northridge earthquake. The caller describes their experience in assisting disaster victims and the challenges of managing aid distribution.
9. Global Political Issues: The discussion touches on various global and national political concerns, including North Korea’s nuclear program and the implications for international security. A caller speculates on potential scenarios if North Korea were to use nuclear weapons.
10. Benny Goodman’s Radio Show: A listener inquires about Benny Goodman, who hosted a radio show on flying saucers and other paranormal topics. Bell confirms Goodman’s involvement in such shows and mentions his occasional returns to Las Vegas.
11. Ghost Experiences: A caller brings up a previous discussion about ghosts and spirits. Bell shares his attempt to meet with a woman who claimed to have regular visits from a ghost, but he was unable to contact her as her phone number ceased to exist.
12. Trilateral Commission: A listener from Santa Cruz discusses concerns about the Trilateral Commission, mentioning Samuel Huntington’s writings and suggesting possible press censorship advocated by the organization.
13. Conspiracy Theories and Media Censorship: The conversation shifts to conspiracy theories, with a focus on the Trilateral Commission and allegations of suppressed stories in the U.S. media. A caller suggests that European media is more scandal-driven than American media.
14. Clinton Administration: There’s discussion about the so-called “Clinton body count” conspiracy theory. Bell expresses skepticism about these claims, emphasizing the need for solid evidence before drawing conclusions.
15. Comparison of EST and Scientology: A caller from San Jose compares his experiences with Erhard Seminars Training (EST) and Scientology. He notes some similarities in their approach and acknowledges that reading “Dianetics” brought significant changes in his life. He sees Scientology more as a science than a religion.
16. Rostenkowski’s Case: A caller from Chugiak, Alaska, discusses the case of Congressman Dan Rostenkowski, speculating on the broader implications for Congress and the potential for his defense to implicate others in similar misconduct.
17. Haunted Hotels: A caller from Albuquerque invites Art Bell to visit the St. James Hotel in Cimarron, New Mexico, known for its paranormal activity. Bell expresses interest in witnessing a reliable ghost sighting.
18. Conspiracy Theories and Skepticism: A caller from Las Vegas appreciates Bell’s healthy skepticism towards conspiracy theories and murder fears, commending his demand for proof and rational discussion.
19. Larry Nichols’ Comments: A caller mentions Larry Nichols’ reason for not appearing on Bell’s show, citing the late-night schedule as a factor.
20. Shortwave Radios: A caller from Wisconsin discusses ordering one of the shortwave radios advertised on the show. She shares her experience with the radio and praises its quality and customer service.
21. Ham Radio: Art Bell talks about his love for radio and his habit of going on ham radio after his show. He shares the frequency he usually uses (3892 lower sideband) and invites ham radio operators to join him.
22. John Birch Society’s View on Linda Thompson: A caller discusses the John Birch Society’s position on Linda Thompson, a figure in the militia movement. The society reportedly views Thompson’s actions as dangerous, mirroring Bell’s skepticism.
23. Dreamland T-Shirts: Bell gives a plug for Dreamland T-shirts, mentioning their high quality and the artwork by Dave Archer. He considers advertising them more broadly.
24. Scientology: A caller named Marie from Marysville expresses skepticism about Scientology and mentions hearing that its founder, L. Ron Hubbard, was involved in witchcraft in England. Art Bell acknowledges her concern and moves on to other topics.
25. Infections and Health Concerns: Another caller discusses a recent health scare involving infections in children in Seattle, emphasizing the importance of hygiene and caution in dealing with staph infections.
26. Government’s Response to Diseases: A caller questions the government’s handling of disease outbreaks and expresses skepticism about the official stance on certain health issues.
27. Dreams and Precognition: A caller from the Bronx shares a personal story about a dream that seemed to predict a gift he received from his sister, leading to a discussion about dreams and precognition.
28. Wayne LaPierre and the NRA: A caller discusses efforts to get Wayne LaPierre, the head of the National Rifle Association (NRA), on Art Bell’s show. There’s speculation that LaPierre’s staff might be shielding him from appearing on the show. The caller also expresses a desire to speak to LaPierre about personal complaints regarding the NRA.
29. Disease Outbreak in Seattle: A caller inquires about a disease outbreak that reportedly started in Europe and has now appeared in Seattle. This disease is described as a virulent form of bacteria that rapidly destroys body tissue. Art Bell advises caution, noting the importance of verifying such claims.
30. Banking Query: A humorous interaction occurs when a caller mistakenly thinks she’s reached her bank and attempts to conduct a transaction. Bell plays along briefly before clarifying the situation.
31. Rumors and Credibility: Art Bell discusses the challenge of discerning truth in the midst of rumors and unverified claims. He emphasizes the importance of being cautious and not jumping to conclusions based on incomplete information.
32. Staphylococcus Infection: A caller from Chico provides information about the Staphylococcus infection, clarifying that it’s a common bacteria found in the throat of a small percentage of people at all times. He explains that it’s not a mutated form but can cause severe symptoms akin to blood poisoning.
33. Religious Questions: A caller engages in a philosophical discussion with Art Bell about the nature of suffering, the existence of God, and the purpose of life. They explore traditional religious answers to these existential questions and the caller’s personal beliefs about God and Jesus Christ.
34. Concerns about Disease Reports: Art Bell expresses skepticism about recent reports of a disease that rapidly consumes human tissue, despite acknowledging the existence of many diseases unknown to the general public. He advises caution and critical thinking in the face of sensational news stories.
35. Staphylococcus and Streptococcus Infections: A caller clarifies that the bacteria responsible for the flesh-eating disease mentioned in previous segments is Streptococcus, not Staphylococcus. Another caller provides further information about the disease, suggesting that it is not new but has been known to cause severe symptoms in isolated cases.
36. Skepticism about Systematized Religion: A caller expresses disillusionment with organized religion, criticizing the superficial answers often given by religious leaders to deep existential questions. Art Bell discusses his views on the involvement of God in human affairs, suggesting a more hands-off approach.
37. Global Welfare and UN Tax Proposal: A caller from Honolulu shares frustration about the United Nations’ proposal for a global tax to support poorer countries, questioning the feasibility and fairness of such a plan.
38. North Korea and U.S. Foreign Policy: The same caller also discusses the situation with North Korea and suggests a more assertive U.S. foreign policy stance.
39. Birth Control and Global Aid: A caller proposes adding birth control to food aid as a controversial solution to global overpopulation issues.
40. Personal Responsibility and Welfare: The caller emphasizes the value of personal responsibility and the belief that everyone should contribute to society rather than living off others. Art Bell agrees, commending the caller’s father for his wisdom and lamenting the loss of such values in society.
41. Frustration with Global Welfare Concept: Art Bell expresses his frustration with the idea of global welfare, as discussed in previous segments. He plans to investigate further and promises to discuss the topic more in the next show.

Art Bell thanks the listeners for another night of engaging talk radio and invites them to tune in the next day. He also mentions his plans to use his ham radio on the frequency 3892 after the show.