Art begins the show by explaining that Linda Bolton is not available, and the focus will be on a discussion about angels with guest John Ronner. John, who has a background in journalism and has written extensively on the subject of angels, talks about the widespread belief in angels among the American public. He cites a survey from December 1993 by Time Magazine, which found that almost 70% of Americans believe in angels, and nearly 46% feel they have a personal guardian angel. The discussion delves into various experiences and encounters people have reported, ranging from seeing luminous beings to hearing voices or feeling strong hunches that guide them. Art and John also discuss the nature of angels, clarifying that, according to medieval philosophers, angels are superior spiritual beings that are non-human and exist in spirit form, although they can sometimes take on human form to intervene.
Art and John Ronner continue discussing the nature of angels, noting that while the strict definition refers to angels as superior spiritual beings, people’s personal experiences often blur this definition. Encounters with deceased loved ones are sometimes described as interactions with guardian angels. John mentions that some experts in UFOs have started talking about angels, suggesting a possible crossover in these fields. They explore how individuals interpret their experiences based on their personal beliefs, such as religious figures in near-death experiences being perceived differently across cultures. John expresses his conviction in life after death, despite acknowledging the lack of scientific proof, pointing to a preponderance of circumstantial evidence. The discussion turns to the possibility of proving the existence of a spiritual realm, with John suggesting that both scientific advancements and personal introspection could eventually provide answers.
John Ronner discusses the implications of quantum physics, which suggests that the external universe requires our consciousness to exist. This idea has shaken the foundations of materialism. He also mentions the Gaia hypothesis and the anthropic principle, indicating a possible intelligent design in the universe. Art brings up the concept of the “quickening,” noting an acceleration of global events like earthquakes, bad weather, and social upheaval. John agrees, likening humanity’s current state to a turbulent adolescence leading to a more mature adulthood. He suggests that angels may play a role in helping humanity through this period. They discuss how the increasing awareness of mortality, particularly with the aging population, is fostering a shift towards spirituality. John notes that the media is now more open to metaphysical topics than in the past, reflecting a broader cultural change.
John Ronner continues discussing the impact of quantum physics on our understanding of reality, highlighting that our consciousness is essential for the existence of subatomic particles. He mentions other scientific theories like the Gaia hypothesis and the anthropic principle, which suggest a universe designed for life. Art introduces the idea of the “quickening,” an acceleration of global events, and wonders if angels are helping humanity during this turbulent time. John agrees, comparing humanity’s current state to a stormy adolescence leading to a more mature adulthood. They discuss the increasing cultural shift towards spirituality, driven by a greater awareness of mortality and a changing intellectual landscape. The conversation then shifts to near-death experiences (NDEs), which John finds compelling as evidence of a spiritual realm. He describes common elements of NDEs, such as out-of-body experiences, journeys through tunnels, and interactions with beings of light. These experiences often lead people to reassess their priorities, valuing kindness and small acts over material concerns. John argues that such experiences provide circumstantial evidence for life after death, challenging materialist explanations.
John Ronner discusses the limitations of materialist explanations for near-death experiences (NDEs). He explains that these theories fail to account for the detailed knowledge people report while clinically dead, such as observing their surroundings from an elevated perspective. Researchers like Michael Sabom have conducted studies that challenge the “good guesser” theory, showing that people who claimed out-of-body experiences during clinical death accurately described events, unlike those without such recollections. Art shares a 60 Minutes episode about a woman who underwent a procedure that required her to be clinically dead for an hour. She revived without any medical intervention once her blood was reintroduced. This example raises questions about consciousness during clinical death. Art also mentions a neon sign placed in an operating room to test out-of-body experiences, noting that no one has reported seeing the sign yet. John suggests that while not everyone recalls NDEs, these experiences could be universal.
John Ronner discusses various accounts of near-death experiences (NDEs) where people reported seeing objects or events that would have been impossible to witness from their physical position. He recounts a case from one of Raymond Moody’s studies where a person saw a sneaker on a hospital window ledge from an out-of-body perspective. Similarly, Sandy Rogers from Lebanon, Illinois, experienced out-of-body perceptions during a life-saving surgery after a suicide attempt, gaining knowledge about her relatives’ actions in other rooms.
Art asks John about the most compelling case of angelic intervention he has encountered. John shares a story from his book, “The Angels of Cookeville,” involving a psychotic genius named Derek David Gary Young, who took an entire elementary school hostage in Cookeville, Wyoming, with a bomb in 1986. Young’s diary revealed his intention to blow up the school regardless of any demands being met. During this harrowing situation, John tells a personal anecdote of a crane operator who was saved from a potentially deadly accident by an unknown man dressed in carpenter whites without a hard hat. This man pointed out a critical issue with the crane’s outrigger, preventing a catastrophe. Despite efforts to find and thank this individual, he was never located, leading John to believe it was an angelic intervention.
John Ronner reflects on an anonymous story about a crane operator’s encounter with a mysterious man in carpenter whites who saved lives by pointing out a critical issue. John appreciates such stories as classic examples of angels in disguise, where the helper appears human but exhibits uncanny details that suggest a divine origin. These encounters often occur at critical moments, with the helper appearing and disappearing mysteriously and sometimes being seen only by the person in need.
Art receives a fax from a skeptic in Honolulu questioning why angels, if real, hide from those in need. John responds by emphasizing that everyone is touched by spiritual forces, though experiences can be subtle. He encourages paying more attention to meaningful coincidences or synchronicities, which often increase with awareness. John cites intuition as another common way people are guided, sharing a story of a Wisconsin mother who, overcome with dread, prayed for her sons’ safety. Her sons later recounted being surrounded by a hostile gang while their car windows miraculously withstood heavy blows, protected by an unseen force.
John Ronner continues sharing various accounts of angelic or paranormal experiences, responding to questions from listeners. He discusses the story of a crane operator who was possibly saved by an angel in disguise and mentions that such experiences are often subtle and personal, with angels appearing in forms we understand to avoid startling us.
Art asks if there were any reports of angelic appearances related to the Oklahoma City bombing. John recalls hearing a brief mention of someone claiming an angel led them out of the wreckage but emphasizes that spiritual experiences often occur during disasters. He shares a story about David Booth, who had recurring nightmares of an American Airlines DC-10 crash and reported them to the FAA. Although the specifics were unclear, Booth’s vision accurately depicted the crash of Flight 191 at Chicago’s O’Hare Airport, which killed 273 passengers. Actress Lindsay Wagner, known for her intuition, avoided boarding the flight due to an overwhelming feeling, ultimately saving her life.
Art and John discuss the nature of intuition, with John highlighting that powerful intuitive experiences are distinct from general worries. Art recounts his own strong intuitive experience and acknowledges the challenge of discerning true intuition from everyday concerns. A fax from a listener named Diane shares a personal encounter with an angel named Flora, who provided answers that proved true over time. Diane’s story prompts a question about the meaning of seeing flashes of blue-white light, which John is set to address.
John Ronner addresses a question from Diane about seeing flashes of blue-white light, suggesting that these could indicate the presence of a departed loved one or a superior spiritual being. He elaborates on how angels might appear as shimmering columns of light, balls of light, or human forms with bright halos. Art then asks if John believes in ghosts, which John affirms. He explains that many people feel departed loved ones act as guardian spirits, though technically not angels. Such contact is often fleeting and occurs around the moment of death, providing closure or reassurance to the living.
John shares anecdotes of ongoing contact with departed loved ones, like a widow who felt her late husband continued making repairs around the house and another woman whose late husband allegedly saved her from a car accident. These experiences are common, with surveys by sociologist Andrew Greeley showing that a significant portion of Americans, especially widows and widowers, believe they have been in contact with the dead.
As the show prepares to take calls, Art asks about the possibility of photographing angels. John mentions he hasn’t received any photos of angels but acknowledges the history and potential validity of spirit photography, despite its association with fraud.
John Ronner answers a call from a listener in Oklahoma who asks if angels are involved with UFOs or flying saucers. John explains that people from various backgrounds, including religious, secular, and metaphysical, report angel encounters, and interest in angels has become a global phenomenon. He notes that one of his books was translated into Japanese, where Buddhist traditions have angel-like figures called bodhisattvas.
Art reads a fax asking about angelic appearances on battlefields. John recounts stories from World War I, where soldiers claimed to see angels during the retreat from Mons, Belgium. He also shares an account from World War II, where a soldier felt a calming presence and heard a voice assuring him during a strafing attack. John suggests that the stress of battle can put the mind into an altered state, allowing perception of spiritual realities.
Art then raises a difficult question about why angels seem to intervene in some situations but not others, such as the Oklahoma City bombing or plane crashes. John acknowledges that there is no satisfactory answer and mentions that many bad events are human-made, like wars. He notes that in the Bible, some individuals are saved by angels while others are not, and this disparity has been a topic of theological debate for centuries.
John Ronner discusses the metaphysical theory that we choose our life experiences, including tragedies, before incarnating. This theory suggests that such experiences are meant for personal growth and learning. He also mentions the concept of karma, which posits that what we put into the world is reflected back to us. John acknowledges that these theories can sometimes lead to blaming victims for their misfortunes, and none offer a completely satisfactory explanation for why bad things happen to good people. He emphasizes that he doesn’t believe the universe deliberately inflicts suffering on individuals.
A caller from San Diego asks about John’s journey into studying angels and his belief in a supreme being. John shares that he started as an agnostic, believing the universe was an accidental machine. Over time, his views changed, especially influenced by near-death experiences (NDEs) and other phenomena that challenged materialist thinking. He explains that despite differing beliefs about the afterlife, many people report similar NDEs, which impressed him and contributed to his shift in perspective.
Another caller shares a personal experience from his youth. At 16, he was about to commit a robbery when he encountered a policeman who simply looked at him, prompting him to abandon his plan. This pivotal moment led to a complete turnaround in his life, eventually leading him to a successful career in engineering. John considers the possibility that the policeman could have been a guardian angel, highlighting the profound impact of such encounters.
John Ronner responds to a caller who mentions that the Bible advises against contacting spirits or the dead. John acknowledges that while some biblical writers held this view, others did not. He mentions the story of Saul consulting the Witch of Endor, which is one instance where summoning the dead was rebuked. John shifts to discussing intuition, sharing a caller’s experience of relying on gut feelings to avoid accidents, especially while riding a motorcycle. He explains that intuition can play a significant role in our daily lives and safety.
Another caller shares a story of a mysterious blond man who told a famous entertainer that “God loves you,” only for the staff to deny any blond man worked there. Art mentions urban legends, such as the “millennial hitchhiker,” and John notes that while these stories are widespread, he hasn’t personally verified them.
Nancy from Seattle calls in, expressing her agnostic stance and interest in angels despite not being particularly religious. The show then takes a break to remind listeners about ordering past programs or subscribing to the newsletter.
John shares a story about a missionary in the South American jungle who, after praying for deliverance from an attacking tribe, saw the warriors leave without harm. The tribe later explained that they saw an army of figures in white robes with flaming swords surrounding the missionary’s hut. John confirms that such stories, where divine intervention is credited for miraculous protection, are common.
John Ronner discusses the phenomenon of angelic help reported by missionaries under duress, sharing that attackers often see these angels even when the missionaries themselves do not. A caller from Oklahoma recounts her mother’s premonitions about her grandfather’s mining accident and death, emphasizing the role of dreams and intuition in foreseeing tragedies. John mentions studies that show people may subconsciously avoid disasters, like the significant drop in ridership on doomed trains documented by researcher W.H.C. Stevenson.
Art Bell then shifts the discussion to the darker side of near-death experiences (NDEs), asking if anyone has negative experiences. John acknowledges that while most early NDE reports were positive, more recent studies have revealed that those with a history of wrongdoing often report distressing experiences. He cites a story by Jack London about a prisoner in solitary confinement who had a painful life review, experiencing the negative consequences of his actions. John speculates on the potential life review of someone like Saddam Hussein, who caused massive loss of life during the Gulf War, illustrating the concept of a painful reckoning for severe wrongdoings.
John Ronner describes the distressing experiences some people have during near-death experiences (NDEs), including encountering a drab gray zone filled with spirits burdened by their unresolved issues from life. He mentions that spiritualism holds the belief that individuals remain very much the same after death, taking both virtues and baggage with them, which can keep them earthbound if not resolved.
Art and John discuss the existence of a darker side to spiritual experiences, with some people reporting negative encounters or seeing hellish realms. This notion challenges the idea that all NDEs are positive. They also discuss the importance of discerning the spirits, a principle that involves testing the validity and benevolence of spiritual encounters. Ignatius of Loyola developed a system for this, focusing on whether the experience leads to increased spirituality and clarity or confusion and negativity.
A caller from Washington warns about malevolent spirits, mentioning personal experiences with such entities. John acknowledges this, emphasizing the need for caution and discernment in spiritual matters.
Another caller from Albuquerque suggests conducting a mass meditation experiment to verify the influence of collective intention. Art humorously recounts a previous attempt to move a pen with collective thought, which failed. John reflects on the idea, noting that similar experiments have been conducted, hinting at the complexity and challenges of such endeavors.
John Ronner addresses the idea of collective meditation for world peace, noting how such efforts around Christmas may subtly influence global events. He mentions significant geopolitical changes, like the fall of communism, as possible outcomes of raised spiritual consciousness. Art humorously suggests the negative karma of meditating harm upon someone, and John agrees, emphasizing that angels are generally believed to be beyond human manipulation.
A listener shares a personal story about a bright light blinding her husband before a fatal accident involving her brother. She explains how this experience gave her a deeper understanding that death is not the end but the beginning of something else. John empathizes with the pain of loss and highlights the importance of finding meaning in the short lives of loved ones.
Art insists John share his contact information for listeners to send stories or obtain his books. John provides an address for correspondence and details upcoming speaking engagements, including locations in North Carolina, Maryland, Houston, Canton, and Lily Dale. He mentions his first book, “Do You Have a Guardian Angel?” is widely available and was written to offer a journalistic perspective on the topic, contrasting with the more religious tracts common at the time.
John Ronner continues to discuss his approach to writing about angels, emphasizing that he aims to present information objectively without dictating beliefs. He mentions his books, including “Do You Have a Guardian Angel?” and “The Angel Almanac,” which provide comprehensive insights into angelic encounters. John’s most recent book, “The Angels of Coalville,” compiles some of the most compelling stories he has encountered over the years.
A caller from El Paso brings up the theory that the light at the end of the tunnel during near-death experiences (NDEs) might be a trick, suggesting to go towards darkness instead. This concept, passed on by UFO investigator John Lear, troubles Art Bell. John Ronner acknowledges that some people mistrust the being of light, believing it could be a deceptive spirit. He refers to the New Testament, where it’s mentioned that the devil can disguise himself as an angel of light. However, John also cites the transformative experience of Paul of Tarsus, who encountered a being of light on the road to Damascus, leading to his conversion to Christianity.
Another caller from Florence, Oregon, shares multiple personal experiences involving guardian angels, including one where his son felt someone holding his hand shortly before passing away. This leads to a discussion on whether guardian angels are specific to individuals or can follow multiple people. John explains that the common belief is that each person is assigned a guardian angel at birth who stays with them until death. This belief, while widely accepted, doesn’t imply that some guardian angels are more effective than others.
John Ronner continues by discussing how some individuals are naturally more attuned to perceiving spiritual realities. He highlights the phenomenon of deathbed visions, where dying patients often speak animatedly to unseen beings who seem to escort them to the afterlife. John shares an example involving James Moore, a famous tenor who, on his deathbed, spoke to his deceased mother before passing away.
Art Bell encourages listeners to keep an open mind about such stories, suggesting that while one need not automatically believe, it is beneficial to consider these experiences. A caller from El Paso, Texas, begins to discuss radiomics, but the call is lost.
Another caller from San Francisco mentions angelic events at an evangelical church. John explains that angelic phenomena are more likely to occur where belief in them is strong, as belief can facilitate such experiences. Conversely, skepticism can create a reality devoid of miracles and spiritual occurrences.
A first-time caller from Norman, Oklahoma, introduces himself and expresses appreciation for the discussion, particularly resonating with Art’s concept of the “quickening.”
A caller named Tanaka from Norman, Oklahoma, shares his profound spiritual awakening and seeks information about a newly discovered star. Art Bell mentions hearing a brief news report about it but lacks detailed information. The show is running out of time, so Art thanks John Ronner for his participation, promising to have him back in the future.
John Ronner expresses his gratitude and signs off. Art provides information for obtaining tapes of the program and mentions the bulletin board service number. The program concludes with an invitation to join the show again next week for more discussions on the human experience and phenomena that challenge conventional understanding.