1998-02-26 – Mark J. Carlotto, Stanley McDaniel – Mariner Mission to Mars

Show: Coast To Coast AM

Air Date: February 26, 1998

Guest(s): Mark J. Carlotto, Stanley McDaniel

Topic(s): Mariner Mission to Mars

The show kicks off with Peter Davenport from the UFO Reporting Center and Michael Korda of MUFON Colorado, addressing recent, unexplained fireball sightings across Colorado’s skies, challenging the notion of a mundane meteor shower and suggesting something far more intriguing at play. The upcoming hour promises further exploration into the Mars anomaly debate, featuring Dr. Mark Jay Carr-Lado and Professor Stanley V. McDaniel, aiming to dissect the opposing viewpoints presented in a prior episode with Richard Hoagland. Art also teases the audience with the mention of possessing potentially sensitive photographs, hinting at national security implications and a moral quandary over their disclosure.

Art Bell and Peter Davenport delve deeper into the intriguing phenomenon of fireballs seen in Colorado, comparing them to the re-entry of the Space Shuttle to highlight the abnormal duration and behavior of these objects. Art recalls a vivid experience when the shuttle’s re-entry produced a brief but spectacular glow across the sky, emphasizing the contrast with the reported fireball’s much longer visibility. They discuss the minimum velocity needed for meteorites to glow and speculate on the unusual nature of the sighting, suggesting it deviates from typical meteorite behavior.

The discussion shifts to historical precedents, with references to Edward J. Ruppelt’s 1956 book on UFOs and Dr. Lincoln La Paz’s study of a similar wave of green fireballs in the late 1940s. This historical context raises the possibility that the current sightings in Colorado may not be an isolated incident but part of a larger, recurring phenomenon. With no ongoing meteor showers to explain the sightings, the conversation leans towards the possibility of an unusual, non-natural phenomenon at play.

A caller from Colorado Springs describes witnessing a large, blue-green fireball descending towards the ground, noting its significant size and the peculiar, consistent glow that distinguishes it from typical meteorites.

As the discussion progresses, Michael Korda joins Art Bell and Peter Davenport to shed light on the ongoing mysterious fireball incidents in Colorado. The narrative takes a step back to January 10th, where the saga seemingly begins with sightings of a blue fireball, as reported by the Summit County Sheriff’s Office and the Colorado Springs Police Department. These reports are peculiar, not only because of the fireball’s unusual southwest to northeast trajectory but also due to the accompanying sonic boom, powerful enough to dislodge items from shelves, indicating an extraordinary event beyond ordinary meteorological phenomena.

The subsequent response is even more intriguing, with three helicopters from Fort Carson Army Base taking off without running lights, hinting at a covert operation. Adding to the mystery, Jack Murphy, a curator, and others believe the object might have landed in the Black Forest area, leading to speculation about military involvement. Reports of military personnel cordoning off areas for contamination testing further fuel speculation about the nature of the incident and the object itself.

The conversation circles back to the initial fireball sighting, with witnesses describing an incredibly bright, turquoise-blue light unlike any meteorite they’ve ever seen. The object’s size, comparable to a full moon, and its consistent color throughout its descent defy conventional explanations, leading to heightened curiosity and concern.

The narrative continues to unfold with additional details and witness accounts of the mysterious fireball events in Colorado. Discussions about a unique sulfur-like smell associated with one of the sightings introduce a new, peculiar aspect to the phenomenon, suggesting a complexity beyond mere meteorites or natural celestial events. Michael Korda and Peter Davenport delve into historical and recent sightings, drawing parallels and noting the atypical trajectories and effects of these objects, such as causing turbulence for aircraft and being visible in daylight.

The conversation expands to include reports from beyond Colorado, with a call from Tennessee hinting at a wider geographical spread of similar phenomena. This broadening scope raises questions about the nature and origin of these sightings, challenging conventional explanations and suggesting a phenomenon not confined to regional or natural explanations.

As the discussion ventures into speculation about the source of these events, from space junk to re-entering satellites, the narrative takes a curious turn towards the Black Forest area. Reports from this location include bizarre sightings and unexplainable military activity, adding layers of mystery and intrigue. The presence of military personnel and vehicles in unusual circumstances, coupled with the inability to access certain areas, fuels speculation about possible connections to the sightings and potential cover-ups or classified operations.

The conversation shifts to theories about the origins of these objects, with speculation ranging from space junk to extraterrestrial phenomena. The discussion is punctuated by references to past events of similar nature, including significant explosions in El Paso and Greenland, suggesting a pattern of unexplained aerial phenomena that defy easy categorization as meteor showers or space debris. The consistent coloration of the fireballs as blue, the direction from which they came, and the lack of change in color as they burned through the atmosphere are all points that challenge the typical characteristics of meteorites and space junk.

The segment also touches on military involvement and the mysterious lack of response from NORAD’s Cheyenne Mountain facility, adding layers of intrigue and speculation about the potential for classified operations or investigations into these sightings. The witnesses’ descriptions, combined with the experts’ analyses, underscore the complexity and uniqueness of the events, leaving more questions than answers about what is occurring in the skies over Colorado and potentially beyond.

The discussion about the mysterious fireball sightings in Colorado takes a turn as attempts to contact NORAD’s Cheyenne Mountain and the Space Command yield no response, further deepening the mystery. Michael Korda notes the unusual silence from these critical defense and space monitoring facilities, raising questions about their possible awareness or involvement in the events. This lack of response, coupled with the earlier detailed observations of unusual military activity in the Black Forest area, fuels speculation about a significant, possibly classified, event.

Peter Davenport and Michael Korda invite the public to report any sightings or information they might have, emphasizing the importance of gathering more data to understand the nature of these phenomena. The conversation also revisits the November 14th event, comparing it to the current flurry of sightings, and notes the absence of typical characteristics associated with space debris or meteorites, such as fragmentation or color changes.

As the show transitions to discussing the Mars Mariner mission with Dr. Mark J. Carlotto and Professor Stanley V. McDaniel, Art Bell reflects on the extraordinary series of events and the community’s response. The mention of these upcoming discussions about Mars and the Martian enigmas provides a segue into exploring other mysteries beyond our planet, suggesting a connection between our curiosity about extraterrestrial phenomena and the unexplained occurrences closer to home.

The segment transitions to discussing the Mars Global Surveyor and its imaging capabilities, specifically concerning the controversy and confusion surrounding the potential imaging of the Cydonia region, where famous Martian anomalies like the “Face on Mars” are located. Dr. Mark J. Carlotto and Professor Stanley V. McDaniel clarify the situation, addressing concerns that the spacecraft’s camera might be turned off during optimal imaging opportunities.

They explain that the Mars Global Surveyor is currently in an aerobraking orbit, which limits its time for taking pictures. Additionally, Mars is approaching a solar conjunction, a period when it will be behind the Sun from Earth’s perspective, significantly reducing the ability to communicate with the spacecraft and send data, including images. This natural part of the mission’s timeline means that image gathering will be less optimal during this period. However, once Mars Global Surveyor emerges from the solar conjunction and completes its aerobraking phase, it will be in a much better orbit for taking high-quality images of Mars, including the Cydonia region.

Dr. Carlotto and Professor McDaniel emphasize that the current situation is a result of the mission’s design and the orbital dynamics involved, not a deliberate attempt to avoid imaging certain areas. They also mention plans to predict and announce future image opportunities, ensuring that interested parties are aware when optimal imaging of key Martian features will be possible.

The conversation touches on the technical challenges of predicting the spacecraft’s orbit during the aerobraking phase due to atmospheric drag and how this affects the ability to plan for specific imaging opportunities. They address rumors and clarify misunderstandings about the camera’s status, confirming that it is currently off but will be turned back on after the aerobraking phase is complete and the spacecraft is in a stable orbit.

The dialogue shifts towards addressing concerns about the Mars Global Surveyor’s imaging opportunities, particularly regarding the Cydonia region. Dr. Mark J. Carlotto and Professor Stanley V. McDaniel emphasize the potential for high-resolution imaging, mentioning a missed opportunity on October 29th that could have provided images with a resolution of about a meter or two. They express frustration over the limited number of photographs released to the public and highlight NASA’s data management plan, which stipulates the release of acquired data six months after acquisition. This policy has raised concerns among the scientific community and the general public, particularly regarding high-interest areas like Cydonia.

The professors criticize the six-month withholding period for data release, arguing that it limits timely public access to important scientific findings. They also touch upon the controversy surrounding the management of the imaging data, particularly the delegation of responsibility to a private contractor, which they view as problematic due to the lack of direct NASA oversight.

The discussion also delves into the statistical likelihood of artificial structures in the Cydonia region. Dr. Carlotto mentions his study, which estimates the odds of artificiality between 100 to 1 and 100,000 to 1, suggesting a strong case for non-natural formations. This is supported by multiple independent pieces of evidence and statistical analyses presented in their upcoming book, “The Case for the Face,” which aims to consolidate the scientific argument for artificial structures on Mars.

Despite initial alarm over the Mars Global Surveyor’s camera being turned off for technical reasons, the scientists explain that this was part of a planned operational pause. They clarify that the camera and other instruments are expected to be reactivated after this period, coinciding with optimal imaging opportunities. The conversation underscores the scientists’ cautious optimism about future chances to capture detailed images of Cydonia, despite the challenges posed by the mission’s operational constraints and the spacecraft’s orbital dynamics.

The conversation continues with discussions about the Mars Global Surveyor’s capacity for imaging the Cydonia region. There’s a focus on the spacecraft’s ability to laterally roll, enabling targeted imaging of specific areas like Cydonia. This maneuverability, combined with the broader field of view available during this phase of the mission, enhances the potential for capturing comprehensive images of the region. However, it’s noted that once the spacecraft enters its mapping orbit in 1999, its mission will focus on systematically covering Mars’s surface, likely reducing the flexibility for targeted imaging.

The participants express optimism about the period from late March through September as an ideal window for imaging Cydonia, thanks to the spacecraft’s operational flexibility before it enters its mapping phase. There’s a consensus that capturing the Cydonia region in one comprehensive photo would be significant, given the anticipated resolution compared to previous images.

The dialogue also touches on the broader implications of discovering artificial structures on Mars. The guests speculate that such a discovery could fundamentally change the motivations for space exploration, particularly human missions to Mars. The notion that archaeological ruins on Mars could energize the space program and justify manned missions is discussed, with references to Carl Sagan’s views on the potential political and economic implications of such findings.

Further, the conversation delves into NASA’s behavior and the perception of a cover-up regarding the Cydonia region. Professor McDaniel reflects on his efforts to understand NASA’s actions without jumping to conclusions about a conspiracy. The discussion highlights the peculiarities in NASA’s responses to inquiries about Cydonia and the skepticism this has engendered among researchers and the public.

Despite past frustrations with NASA, a meeting between researchers and NASA officials is described as surprisingly positive, suggesting a potential shift in the agency’s openness to discussing Cydonia and related research. However, the revelation that NASA officials seemed unaware of the researchers’ work raises questions about the agency’s internal communication and awareness of external scientific contributions.

The conversation continues to explore the complexities of the Mars Global Surveyor’s mission, particularly the political and economic influences that might affect the prioritization of specific research directions, such as the focus on geological studies over manned missions. Dr. Mark J. Carlotto and Professor Stanley V. McDaniel delve into the intricacies of academic publishing and how the planetary science community’s selective journal readership may have contributed to a lack of awareness about alternative research on Martian anomalies.

The dialogue sheds light on the economic motivations that might underlie certain decision-making processes within NASA and its contractors, suggesting a potential conflict of interest between maintaining funding for robotic missions and shifting focus toward manned missions that could explore anomalous structures on Mars. The discussion points to a perceived division within NASA, with some factions more open to investigating Martian anomalies and others possibly resistant due to vested interests in the status quo of mission planning and funding allocation.

The guests express concerns about the dissemination of information, or disinformation, on NASA contractor Dr. Malin’s website, questioning the integrity of the data management and the transparency of mission findings. They speculate about internal dynamics within NASA and its contractors, suggesting a lack of control or oversight over how imaging data is managed and presented to the public.

Amid these discussions, there’s an underlying skepticism about NASA’s commitment to fully disclosing information on Martian anomalies. The mention of the Brookings Report hints at historical precedents for withholding information from the public due to potential societal impacts, further fueling speculation about the agency’s intentions.

The segment concludes with reflections on the implications of failing to image the Cydonia region comprehensively. The guests consider such an outcome a significant loss for scientific inquiry and public knowledge. They remain hopeful, however, for a change in NASA’s approach, driven by a faction within the agency that respects and values the pursuit of understanding Martian anomalies.

The conversation delves into the strategic actions taken by the public and researchers to influence NASA’s imaging decisions, particularly regarding the Cydonia region on Mars. Efforts included directing faxes towards influential figures and media outlets to ensure that commitments to image Cydonia at every opportunity were upheld, especially targeting Dr. Malin, who oversees the imaging. The guests express support for public pressure to ensure accountability and proactive imaging of Cydonia, emphasizing the importance of timing in relation to the spacecraft’s orbit.

Discussion then shifts to the potential release of images showing Cydonia to be not natural. The guests express skepticism about the immediate release of such images, citing the reliability of enhancement processes that could emulate what would be seen at high resolutions. They speculate on the types of evidence that might emerge from new images, such as additional geometric shapes, which could support the hypothesis of artificial structures.

Suspicion arises regarding Dr. Malin’s remarks about the “face” on Mars, suggesting he might already possess images from October that still depict a face-like structure. This raises questions about the integrity of information release and the potential for withholding conclusive images.

The conversation also touches on the ideal timing for imaging opportunities, correcting earlier misunderstandings about the availability of such opportunities in mid-March. It becomes clear that while specific opportunities cannot be predicted at this moment, the coming months after the aerobraking phase ends will likely present multiple chances for imaging Cydonia.

A scenario is proposed where Dr. Malin, due to the direct downlink setup to his facility, could have exclusive access to preliminary images, offering a chance to review potentially controversial findings before public release. This setup is viewed with suspicion, as it could allow for a selective approach to disclosing findings, undermining transparency.

The guests discuss the possibility that economic motivations and internal conflicts within NASA could influence decisions about imaging and releasing photos of the Cydonia region. They suggest that the current situation might provide NASA with an opportunity to review controversial images offline, thus allowing them to strategically plan their public release.

The discussion also touches on international protocols regarding the discovery of extraterrestrial life or artifacts, which require scientific verification before public announcement. The guests speculate that NASA might be navigating these protocols, balancing the need for scientific rigor with the public’s right to know.

The conversation reveals deep skepticism about NASA’s transparency, with references to past instances where the agency was accused of withholding information or spreading disinformation. This skepticism extends to the handling of the Mars Global Surveyor images by Dr. Malin, the contractor in charge of the imaging, who is perceived as having too much control over the data with insufficient oversight from NASA.

Art mentions receiving photographs with potential national security implications and expresses a moral dilemma about holding onto them without taking action. This situation underscores the responsibility media figures might face when dealing with sensitive information.

Art also touches on additional reports of fireballs, indicating ongoing unusual celestial activity. This phenomenon, lacking an immediate explanation, adds an element of mystery and intrigue to the night’s discussions.

Further, the conversation briefly explores controversial topics such as assisted suicide, with reference to Jack Kevorkian’s latest case, illustrating Art’s libertarian views on personal freedom and the role of government in individual decisions.

The discussion then shifts to internet taxation, with Art expressing relief at President Clinton’s opposition to taxing internet sales, highlighting concerns about government regulation and the digital economy.

An update on Colombia’s status regarding U.S. sanctions and counter-narcotics efforts introduces international politics and drug policy into the conversation, reflecting on the complexities of international relations and domestic policy impacts.

The segment also delves into unusual animal behavior, with a listener reporting an unprovoked attack by their cat, suggesting a broader discussion about the changing natural world and its impact on both humans and animals.

One caller recounts seeing a spaceship while working at Lockheed, describing an unusual object making a loop in the sky near the crescent moon. Another caller from Oregon discusses witnessing strange military activities at Fort Carson, hinting at government knowledge of unexplained phenomena.

Art expands the conversation to include recent reports of fireballs in the sky, comparing these sightings to notable events like the kiloton explosion over Greenland. This leads to a discussion about the potential intentions of extraterrestrial visitors, with Art referencing Dr. Jacobs and Professor Michio Kaku’s warnings that advanced alien civilizations may not necessarily be benevolent.

The conversation then shifts to lighter topics, such as police behavior in traffic and the peculiarities of law enforcement privileges. A caller questions the rationale behind certain police practices, sparking a broader discussion about accountability and societal norms.

The topic of Noah’s Ark is introduced by a caller, leading to speculative discussions about the logistics of housing various animal species on the Ark.

Art receives a letter from an individual claiming to be a time traveler, who shares predictions and insights about future events, including political scandals and leadership changes in the U.S.

The time traveler’s message includes detailed accounts of their experiences and missions, discussing the mechanics of time travel, the difficulty of creating time paradoxes, and personal reflections on their involvement in secretive operations. The letter mentions a packet of information left with a trusted individual, intended for Art and others, in case of the sender’s disappearance or untimely death, suggesting the gravity and potential risks associated with their revelations.

Art expresses his intention to take the letter seriously, especially the parts he is asked not to read publicly, indicating the sensitive nature of the information shared. He requests the portions of the letter that can be disclosed to be posted on his website, underscoring the significance he attributes to the message.

A caller from Boulder, Colorado, introduces the concept of the “great discontinuity,” hinting at orchestrated natural disasters leading up to a significant event, involving an organization called “Omega Plus.” This discussion broadens the scope of the show, touching on conspiracy theories and historical narratives about the Nazis’ escape post-World War II.

Art engages with a caller claiming to have released the MJ-12 (Majestic 12) briefing document and President Truman’s letter to the public in 1976. This caller’s story echoes the actions of Daniel Ellsberg with the Pentagon Papers, revealing secret government information about UFOs and extraterrestrial encounters. The caller, who worked for a military agency in Washington, D.C., describes how he was ordered to destroy numerous documents but chose to photocopy and release these particular documents due to their extraordinary content.

The caller’s decision to make these documents public stemmed from a belief in their authenticity and the public’s right to know about such significant matters. He discusses the thorough consideration given to this decision, driven by the shock and disbelief at the content of the documents, which contradicted his religious upbringing and understanding of reality.

The conversation shifts to the caller’s current fears and motivations for coming forward after years of silence. He hints at a high-level military individual, still alive, who has knowledge of the MJ-12 documents and should come forward. The caller provides a clue to this individual’s identity, mentioning a declined presidential nomination for a high post, stirring curiosity and speculation about who this person might be.

Art humorously suggests the caller use the codename “Deep Doo Doo” for future communications, highlighting the risks and potential consequences of revealing such sensitive information.

The conversation then shifts to a caller from British Columbia asking about Art’s opinion on the UPN video related to an alien autopsy, which Art dismisses as a damaging joke to ufology. This reflects the broader skepticism within the UFO community regarding certain sensational claims and the importance of credibility in discussions about extraterrestrial life.

Another caller introduces the topic of sprites in the atmosphere, suggesting they might be a form of negative matter that could theoretically enable time travel, as mentioned by Professor Michio Kaku. This discussion links back to earlier themes of speculative science and the quest for understanding phenomena that challenge conventional scientific paradigms.

One caller presents a fascinating theory about sprites in the atmosphere being a form of negative matter, potentially linked to time travel, suggesting the cosmos itself could be inherently designed for temporal navigation.

The discussion shifts to more mysterious topics, with a caller from Portland suggesting legal disclaimers for fax wars, a humorous take on the serious subject of time travel. He proposes the cosmos as a giant time machine, a concept that challenges the traditional Big Bang theory, which Art expresses skepticism towards, favoring more complex cosmological theories.

A caller from Tampa shares a personal story from childhood about witnessing a bright light and a loud slam in a wooded area, followed by a significant government presence and the subsequent clearing of the woods. This story adds to the show’s exploration of unexplained phenomena and potential cover-ups, resonating with themes of secrecy and discovery that recur throughout the program.

One caller discusses the environmental changes in a restricted area, suggesting the presence of antigravity devices and proposing theories on the construction of the pyramids using earth’s energy. This conversation taps into longstanding mysteries and the possibility of ancient advanced technologies.

Another caller from Dayton, Ohio, the alleged home of Hangar 18, brings up the end-of-world religions and the letter from the time traveler. They speculate on whether discussing the letter’s contents could alter future events. Art maintains that the information shared would not create a paradox, emphasizing the caller’s point that the letter’s specifics could provide tangible predictions for the near future.

The program shifts to lighter moments, including Art’s request for listeners to send in photographs of mysterious sites and his playful banter with callers about the program’s music – specifically the theme from “Midnight Express.”

Art’s interaction with a caller questioning the Big Bang theory encapsulates the show’s open-minded approach to scientific debates. Despite their non-expertise, they express skepticism about mainstream scientific explanations for the universe’s origin, illustrating the show’s role as a platform for alternative theories and questioning established narratives.

A fax from an author speculating that Art might be on a secret government payroll adds another layer of intrigue. This allegation prompts a discussion about the perception of Art’s show and its exploration of conspiracy theories, government secrets, and unexplained phenomena.

Art connects with Michael Hemmingson from San Diego, the author behind the speculative post suggesting Art might be on a secret government black ops payroll. Hemmingson clarifies that his post was intended as a germ of an idea for a novel, not as an attack on Art. Despite this, he’s received a slew of hate emails following Art’s discussion of the topic on air. Hemmingson, a published novelist and short fiction writer, explains that the article was an exercise in speculative fiction, drawing from his observations of Art’s career and the thematic content of his show.

During their conversation, Art and Hemmingson delve into the nature of speculation and its impact on public perception. Hemmingson recounts the origin of his post, its journey through various internet forums, and the unexpected attention it garnered. Art, reflecting on his own path to success, acknowledges the long struggle behind becoming an “overnight success,” emphasizing the years of hard work that precede public recognition in the entertainment industry.

The dialogue also touches on the feedback Hemmingson has received since the post’s resurgence, including inquiries from the Washington Post. They discuss the potential for speculative fiction to be interpreted as fact by the audience, highlighting the fine line between creative storytelling and the dissemination of information that could be perceived as credible or factual.

Hemmingson clarifies that his post was meant as speculation, influenced by his interest in conspiracies and the paranormal, rather than a factual accusation. He acknowledges that his presentation of certain claims, particularly regarding frequent guests of the show being CIA operatives for UFO disinformation, lacked proper sourcing and was more an expression of speculation than a statement of fact.

Hemmingson admits to a lack of caution in how he framed his speculations, recognizing the impact his words might have on public perception and on those he mentioned in his post.

Art questions Hemmingson about the basis of his claims, highlighting the importance of distinguishing between speculation and fact, especially when dealing with sensitive accusations like CIA involvement in disinformation campaigns. Hemmingson concedes that his approach could have been more responsible, indicating a withdrawal of his direct accusations but maintaining his right to speculate.

The exchange sheds light on the complexities of public discourse in the age of the internet, where speculative ideas can quickly gain traction and be interpreted as truth. This conversation underscores the responsibilities of writers and broadcasters in navigating speculative content, emphasizing the need for clarity in distinguishing between imaginative speculation and factual reporting.

Art expresses his frustration and concern over the impact such speculative narratives can have on his life and reputation. Despite Michael’s attempts to play down the situation with humor and claims of admiration for Art’s work, Art points out the real-world consequences of spreading unverified speculation.

Michael reveals he’s producing a play that includes a character listening to Art’s show, blending themes of extraterrestrial interest with personal encounters. This revelation adds a layer of complexity to the discussion, illustrating how Art’s show has permeated various aspects of popular culture and personal life. However, Art remains focused on the potential damage caused by Michael’s speculative post, emphasizing the challenge of dispelling such rumors once they gain traction.