Dr. Jeff Long, a radiation oncologist, and Tricia McGill, a licensed clinical psychologist, are guests on Art’s show, Coast to Coast AM. Dr. Long is a prominent figure in the study of Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), with a dedicated website and involvement in the International Association for Near-Death Studies. Tricia McGill, who also has extensive experience with NDEs, brings another perspective to the discussion. They introduce Sarah, who provided a captivating account of her NDE, and mention a new guest who will share her experience later in the show.
Art questions Tricia about an experiment involving NDEs in prisoners, known as the “flatliners experiment,” where prisoners would be clinically dead and then revived to observe if NDEs could alter their behavior. The method involved inducing cardiac arrest through electrical stimulation, and the plan was to monitor the effects after several minutes of clinical death. The experiment sparked a moral debate on the ethics of potentially losing prisoners, as the organizers were indifferent to fatalities, having the prisoners sign consent forms absolving liability.
Art continues the conversation with Dr. Long and Tricia McGill, addressing their ethical concerns about the proposed NDE experiment on prisoners. Dr. Long and McGill express their disapproval and fear that the experiment may proceed without them if the organizers find alternative funding. Art highlights the persistent nature of such unethical endeavors despite societal restrictions, comparing it to the Nazis’ inhumane experiments. The guests discuss the potential medical value of the research results, but agree that the unethical methods would likely lead to their suppression. They also touch on different laws in Scandinavian countries that might permit such experiments under volunteer conditions. Despite their decision to avoid involvement, Dr. Long and McGill promise to keep Art informed if they hear more about the project.
Art expresses his ethical concerns about the proposed experiment, calling it “unethical to the max.” Dr. Long and McGill agree, stressing their refusal to participate. Despite this, they worry the project might proceed if funding is found. Art shifts the topic to an update on Sarah and mentions Terence McKenna, who has been diagnosed with an aggressive brain tumor. McKenna underwent a gamma knife operation, removing 90% of the tumor, though his prognosis remains poor due to the tumor’s aggressive nature. Dr. Long explains the gamma knife procedure and the challenges of treating glioblastomas, highlighting the low survival rate. Art then references a collective effort to pray for McKenna’s recovery, part of a larger experiment.
Sarah’s story, which Art recaps for listeners, involves a near-death experience (NDE) following a severe accident where she was hit by a truck while bicycling. She described a journey through various realms, encountering both hellish and heavenly scenes. Initially, she faced demonic figures and terrifying environments, which she quickly left. She then found herself in a tunnel with different doorways, each leading to distinct afterlife experiences. One doorway led to a traditional hell, another to a state of depression, and yet another to a blissful heaven. Despite the bliss, she decided to leave, guided by a being of light. She ultimately returned to her body to be with her son, despite enduring severe physical damage and ongoing pain.
Sarah’s NDE intrigued many listeners, prompting comparisons to descriptions in the Tibetan Book of the Dead. Despite having no prior knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism, her experiences bore striking similarities. Tricia McGill, a licensed hypnotherapist, investigated Sarah’s past life through regression therapy. They discovered Sarah had a past life as a Tibetan Buddhist monk who was beheaded, suggesting a possible connection to her NDE. The entire process was documented and left both Sarah and the investigators profoundly impacted.
Dr. Long and Tricia McGill discuss the possibility of sharing parts of the recorded sessions with Sarah, hinting at her possible consent. They delve deeper into the implications of Sarah’s NDE, suggesting that her previous life as a Tibetan Buddhist monk influenced her afterlife experience, despite her current life as a strict Baptist. This raises questions about the nature of our souls and whether our afterlife might be influenced by past lives rather than current beliefs. Both guests express amazement at the results, noting the independence of the past-life regression to avoid bias. They had not known about the Tibetan Book of the Dead until listeners informed them after their last broadcast.
The discussion then shifts to Carl Jung’s similar experience during a heart attack, where he saw the Earth from space and encountered a Hindu priest, despite not being Hindu. This parallel further intrigues Art and his guests, suggesting that such experiences might transcend current religious beliefs. Art then segues into asking Dr. Long about heart attacks and strokes, noting that many people, even those who don’t have NDEs, report profound experiences during these medical events.
Art and his guests discuss how significant life-threatening events, even without a near-death experience (NDE), can lead to profound personality changes. Dr. Long mentions Dr. Kenneth Ring’s research, which found that about 30% of people with life-threatening experiences have NDEs, often resulting in positive life changes. Art wonders if some people might have NDEs without remembering them, with the memory being purposefully withheld because it might be too difficult for them to handle.
They introduce Karen, a high school history teacher who had an NDE three years ago. Karen, raised in a Southern Baptist background, began rejecting those beliefs in high school, feeling they were too vengeful and fear-based. She drifted into paganism and other spiritual interests, believing in the possibility of multiple gods and exploring astrology and Greek mythology.
Karen begins recounting her near-death experience (NDE) by describing a vivid dream she had after the birth of her son, Jacob, where she dreamt of dying in a car accident involving a utility truck. The dream was so realistic that it felt like a premonition. For months, Karen was extremely cautious while driving, constantly on the lookout for the truck from her dream. Eventually, she decided to stop living in fear and tried to dismiss the dream.
However, one day, as she was driving to pick up her son and attend a baseball game, she was involved in a car accident exactly as she had dreamt. A utility truck, identical to the one in her dream, ran a red light and hit her car on the driver’s side. The impact was severe, with her head hitting the truck’s headlight, leading to serious injuries. Despite wearing a seatbelt, the force and height of the truck caused significant trauma.
Karen recalls waking up in her car with a young woman trying to help her. Though disoriented, she instinctively locked the door to aid the woman’s efforts to get inside. The paramedics and medical staff later informed her that she was lucky to have survived the accident due to its severity.
Karen describes the aftermath of her accident, detailing her injuries, which included a severe concussion, broken collarbone, two broken ribs, and pelvic fractures. She explains that she has no recollection of the crash itself, likely because she did not see the truck coming and thus did not tense up, which might have worsened her injuries.
Karen then recounts her near-death experience (NDE). Instantly, she found herself in a serene and beautiful park-like setting with vibrant colors, trees, flowers, and mountains in the background. Despite not seeing other people, she felt an overwhelming sense of love, peace, and ecstasy. She met three guides, one of whom was her deceased grandfather. These guides conveyed to her that she had died, a fact she initially struggled to comprehend. To help her understand, they showed her the accident from an aerial perspective, which helped her accept the reality of her situation.
Art returns to the show, reminding listeners of the unique experience they are about to hear. Dr. Tricia McGill mentions that Karen was informed by heavenly beings that she had died, which adds an extraordinary dimension to her account. Karen then continues, explaining that one of her guides was her grandfather, whose role was to help her transition from her human existence to a spiritual one. Another guide was a spirit guide from her life, and the third was a feminine spirit she was supposed to have known in a previous life.
Karen describes her curiosity after realizing she had died, particularly about the whereabouts of her grandparents. She learned they were in another level or galaxy, which she doesn’t clearly remember now. She hopes to recover these memories through hypnosis. Karen mentions that all levels, including Earth, are connected with spirit realms, with Earth being the lowest. She describes the place she was in as a transition zone, a sort of loading dock for souls moving between realms.
Karen was told that her soul had been taken out before the accident, which is why she doesn’t remember it happening. This explanation provided her with some understanding of her NDE and the process she experienced.
Karen’s guides explained that her soul was taken out immediately during the accident to avoid suffering the physical pain and trauma of a violent death. They showed her a life review, but unlike other accounts where individuals relive their entire life and the pain they’ve caused others, Karen’s review focused on the lessons she had learned and what she had accomplished. This suggests she may not have inflicted much harm on others, which might explain the absence of painful memories in her review.
Despite being told she was dead and shown how she died, Karen was not given the choice to return, unlike some NDE accounts. However, as she reviewed her life and the lessons learned, she began to think about her family, particularly her young son and husband. The thought of leaving them behind, especially her son who was only 7 or 8 months old, and her mother who had always said she could not survive the loss of her children, created a strong pull back to life. Her guides tried to reassure her, explaining that her human side was struggling to let go, and showed her what would happen to her loved ones if she did not return.
Karen’s guides showed her what would happen to her family after her death. They revealed that her son would be well cared for by her in-laws, while her husband would eventually remarry a kind and loving woman. However, Karen saw that this woman would treat her own child better than Karen’s son, which deeply troubled her.
She was then shown her own funeral to help her understand her continued connection to her family. Seeing her mother, father, sister, husband, and son at the funeral was overwhelming. Her mother’s intense grief and her husband’s unexpected level of distress were particularly difficult for her to witness. Although her young son was too young to understand what was happening, his innocent laughter and playfulness struck Karen with the realization that he would never remember her or the love she had for him. This was so painful that her guides pulled her out of the scene.
Karen began questioning the infallibility of her guides, as their attempt to help her transition seemed to backfire. Her experience suggested that even in the spiritual realm, there could be misunderstandings or misjudgments about what is best for a soul.
Karen describes how her guides explained that her soul was removed immediately during the accident to spare her from experiencing the physical trauma. They emphasized that violent deaths often warrant such interventions to prevent suffering. Her guides discussed the purpose of life and the lessons souls are meant to learn and teach on Earth. They told her that, from a spiritual perspective, witnessing her family’s grief would be seen as part of their growth, which she would be happy about once fully transitioned.
However, Karen struggled to accept this perspective, especially the idea that she could find happiness in her family’s suffering. The guides reassured her with love and peacefulness, but Karen remained troubled by the thought of her son, Jake, growing up without her. She couldn’t bear the thought of missing out on significant moments in his life and seeing her family in pain. Despite the guides’ soothing words and assurances that she would find peace and happiness, Karen resisted.
To comfort her, the guides offered that she could stay as a spirit to watch over her loved ones, providing a sense of presence and peace to her family. This compromise seemed to be an attempt to ease her transition and help her release her human attachments gradually.
Karen’s guides continued to show her the future of her family, explaining that her husband would remarry and that her son would be taken care of by her in-laws until her husband felt ready to care for him. They emphasized that excessive grief from the living can hold a spirit earthbound, potentially leading to the spirit becoming lost and overly attached to their previous life.
Dr. Tricia McGill added that this is why excessive grief is harmful—it can tether the departed to the earth, hindering their spiritual progress. The Irish tradition of having a celebration of life rather than a somber funeral was mentioned as a healthier way to deal with grief.
Karen struggled with accepting her death, especially the idea that her son’s new stepmother would treat him differently than her own child. This prospect deeply troubled her, causing significant emotional distress. Despite the guides’ reassurances and their explanations of the spiritual benefits, Karen couldn’t reconcile with the idea of leaving her son.
Her guides offered that she could stay as a spirit to watch over her loved ones, but warned against staying too long to avoid becoming too attached to her past life. They showed her the future of her son, who would stay with her in-laws until he was about four or five years old, and then move back with his father. Karen saw that her son’s path would be challenging and that her husband would struggle with patience due to his lack of experience in raising their son.
Ultimately, Karen’s distress over her son’s future, especially with the new stepmother, remained unresolved. Her deep emotional connection and grief over her family kept her from fully transitioning and accepting her death.
Karen explains that despite her guides’ efforts, she continued to struggle with the idea of leaving her son, Jake, behind. They showed her everything they could, including how her family would cope and her son’s future challenges, emphasizing that he had chosen this path to learn and grow spiritually.
The guides discussed the nature of religion, revealing that all religions contain aspects of truth about the afterlife, despite their differences. Karen questioned why these truths couldn’t be unified into one religion. The guides explained that different belief systems are essential to the spiritual journeys of individuals, shaping their experiences and lessons on Earth. Even atheists, who do not believe in any god, have their disbelief play a crucial role in their learning and growth.
Karen was shown that spirits in heaven can learn theoretically but need to experience life on Earth to fully understand emotions and actions. This is why they incarnate and take on various personalities and beliefs. The conversation also touched on the concepts of karma and hell. Unlike some NDEs that describe hell as a place of fire and brimstone, Karen was shown that hell does not exist in that form. Instead, if someone fails to live a life aligned with their spiritual path and lessons, they are sent back to Earth to try again.
Karen’s guides continued their patient and loving attempts to help her transition, showing her various outcomes for her family to ease her concerns. However, Karen remained deeply upset about leaving her son, Jake. Her distress reached a point where she felt enveloped by a higher being, which provided her with immense love, compassion, and peace. This higher being ultimately overruled the guides, deciding that Karen should be allowed to return to Earth because her spirit was not ready to transition fully.
The higher being feared that if Karen stayed in the Earth realm as a spirit, she might become stuck and turn into a ghost, unable to move on. Instead, it was decided that Karen would be sent back to her body, and her life’s lessons and events would be rearranged. This included postponing some situations and altering the future she had seen, such as her funeral, her husband’s remarriage, and her son’s upbringing.
Karen argued her case for returning, emphasizing her desire to help her mother and others cope with grief by sharing her knowledge of the afterlife. The higher being agreed, and they planned her new lessons for her return. The concept of time in the afterlife was different from Earth’s linear time, making it possible to alter events and outcomes.
Karen’s return involved reconfiguring time and events to fit her continued existence. This experience was unique and unheard of in many NDE accounts, highlighting the complexity and flexibility of spiritual experiences.
Karen continues to recount her near-death experience (NDE) and the process of returning to her body. She mentions that certain knowledge she gained during her NDE had to be taken away because humans aren’t meant to know it. She recalls being placed above the accident scene and wondering how much time she had left with her son, Jake. Her guides told her she would know when her children were older, but they did not specify an exact time.
Karen’s memory of re-entering her body is fragmented due to her head injury. She remembers waking up in her car, confused about what had happened, and being helped by a young girl who was trying to keep her awake. Karen perceived the girl as angelic and comforting. The airbags in Karen’s car, which shouldn’t have deployed in a side-impact collision, did deploy, likely saving her life.
Art remarks on the uniqueness of Karen’s experience, noting how she was allowed to return to life despite initially being told her time was up. Karen believes there are others with similar experiences who haven’t shared their stories. Art thanks Karen for sharing her incredible and unique NDE, highlighting the rarity of someone “talking their way out of heaven.”
Dr. Jeff Long and Dr. Tricia McGill return to the show, reflecting on Karen’s story and addressing listener reactions. While many find her account authentic and emotionally compelling, some skeptics suggest that it might be deceptive. Dr. Long emphasizes that the International Association for Near-Death Studies has vetted their work and attests to their credibility and integrity. Both Dr. Long and Dr. McGill are dedicated to bringing the truth to light, funding their research and counseling out of their own pockets.
Art Bell expresses his belief in the sincerity of both Sarah and Karen’s stories. However, he shares his lingering doubt about whether these experiences could be products of a dying brain rather than actual spiritual events. Dr. Long addresses this skepticism by discussing the medical perspective. He explains that hypoxia (reduced blood oxygen) leads to confusion and imprecise perceptions, not the detailed and lucid experiences described by those who have had near-death experiences (NDEs).
Dr. Long also debunks the theory that endorphins or other brain chemicals could produce NDEs. He points out that no drug, whether naturally produced in the body or administered externally, has ever consistently replicated the detailed and consistent elements of NDEs. He mentions past neurosurgical experiments that produced fleeting and inconsistent sensations but nothing comparable to a full NDE.
Art Bell adds that scientists have attempted to replicate NDEs through electrical brain stimulation but have only achieved limited and transient effects. Dr. Long reiterates that these experiments do not come close to the comprehensive experiences reported by NDE survivors.
Dr. Long and Dr. McGill reflect on the possibility that the creator might have designed a trigger mechanism for near-death experiences (NDEs), allowing a spiritual event to take over once a person begins to die. They argue that NDEs are deeply connected to a divine experience and that despite any scientific explanations or triggers, the ultimate source of these experiences is a higher power or God.
Art Bell questions whether humans should study the afterlife and God in this way, pointing out the traditional belief that if humans were meant to know what happens after death, they would already know. Dr. McGill argues that humans are inherently spiritual beings connected to God, both before and after life, making the study of NDEs a way to understand the true nature of existence.
The discussion then turns to the practical implications of understanding NDEs. Dr. McGill points out that knowing what to expect in the afterlife can help people transition from life to death with less fear, making it a comforting and valuable knowledge. Dr. Long emphasizes that studying NDEs can transform lives, as people who return from such experiences often undergo significant positive changes, becoming more loving, spiritual, and less materialistic.
Art Bell and his guests agree that sharing stories like Karen’s and Sarah’s can help people prepare for death and improve their current lives by embracing the insights gained from NDEs. They open the floor to a caller, Laurie from Drexel, Pennsylvania, who brings up the idea of transforming prisoners through induced NDEs. Dr. Long responds that the transformative power of NDEs is a divine thing and any attempt to artificially induce such experiences to play God is ethically problematic.
Dr. Long and Dr. McGill emphasize that attempting to artificially induce near-death experiences (NDEs) or “play God” usually fails and often has negative consequences. They stress the importance of allowing the natural sequence of life’s lessons to unfold, guided by a higher power.
Dr. McGill expresses a desire for people to experience the positive aspects of NDEs without the associated trauma. She suggests that meditation and out-of-body experiences can offer similar insights, allowing individuals to understand their dual physical and spiritual nature. They discuss the value of these practices in helping people grasp the reality of an afterlife and spiritual existence.
A caller named Gary from Texas asks why some people, like himself, come close to death but do not experience an NDE. Dr. Long explains that about 70% of people who come close to death do not remember having an NDE. He suggests that these individuals might have had an experience but do not recall it. The impact on their lives—whether they become more loving and spiritual—can be an indicator of an unremembered NDE.
Dr. McGill adds that some people might not be able to handle the knowledge gained from an NDE, which could explain why certain memories are not retained. She mentions treating individuals who struggle to reintegrate into normal life after experiencing the beauty of heaven and then being “kicked out.”