Art opens the episode of Dark Matter with his usual engaging style, discussing the potential reopening of the government if the House passes a bill. He humorously refers to it as the “kick-the-can” bill, noting its costly impact of $24 billion on the U.S. economy. Art then shifts to personal concerns, mentioning his considerations about returning to the Philippines in case of a future financial crisis, and touches on the possibility of frozen accounts. He reflects on the potential consequences of halting social security and other government payments, predicting widespread chaos if millions of people suddenly stop receiving their checks. Art emphasizes the importance of protecting his family and urges others to think similarly. He also invites listeners to participate in a ghost photo contest, which ends soon, offering prizes like a new Sirius XM radio. Additionally, he encourages listeners to share their ghost stories for a Halloween special episode titled “Spooky Matter.”
Art continues the show by discussing his excitement about experimenting with Skype for callers and encourages listeners from around the world to participate, especially those from overseas who often send him messages but rarely call in. He humorously shares a graphic making fun of the quality of UFO photos and expresses his frustration at the skepticism faced by those who claim to have seen UFOs but have no camera to capture it. Art notes that even when good photos are taken, they’re often dismissed as being doctored. He then shifts to an update on seismic activity, reporting small earthquakes near Lake Shasta, which he urges listeners to monitor closely. Art also mentions that Peru has reopened its Office of Anomalous Aerial Phenomena Research due to a surge in UFO sightings, highlighting the country’s serious approach to the phenomenon. He contrasts this with the U.S. government’s tendency to “kick cans down the road.” As the show progresses, Art prepares for his guest Tobias McGriff, teasing an interesting discussion ahead. He also praises Sirius XM as the best platform for Dark Matter while acknowledging the value of terrestrial radio during natural disasters. Art then promotes the CC Radio 2E from Sea Crane, a top-tier radio capable of picking up AM stations, monitoring weather alerts, and even connecting to Sirius XM.
He then introduces his guest, Tobias McGriff, a historian specializing in paranormal events, who studied at Oxford and founded Blue Orb Ghost Tours in Savannah, Georgia. Tobias is involved in a variety of projects, including the documentary Modern Hauntings, which covers eyewitness accounts of supernatural events. Art interrupts briefly to share breaking news that Congress has “kicked the can” regarding the budget, pushing the issue down the road once again. Tobias shares a story about a rash of UFO sightings in southern Georgia in the late 1960s and early 70s, which even led to a covert Pentagon investigation. They discuss President Carter’s UFO sighting and the role of fellow eyewitness Fred Hart, who will share new and controversial information later. Tobias also works as a producer on the upcoming film 701, focusing on unsolved cases from Project Blue Book.
Art then addresses the scheduling conflict between Dark Matter and another show, Coast to Coast, explaining how Tobias was booked on both, leading to some confusion and even hate mail. Art reassures Tobias that he was not to blame, expressing some frustration over the situation but downplaying it as mostly a humorous mix-up. They talk about handling criticism, with both agreeing that being in the public eye requires a thick skin. Art reflects that while some listeners worry about conflicts between the two shows, he insists he doesn’t engage in “wars” but isn’t shy about defending himself when needed.
Art and Tobias continue their conversation, with Art confirming that Tobias saved some of the best content for Dark Matter. Tobias reveals that a special website, goodstuff.com, was set up for the night’s episode, offering exclusive footage from the documentary Lights Over Leary. This sizzle reel includes never-before-released interviews with key witnesses, including Fred Hart, who was with President Carter during his UFO sighting. Tobias highlights how Hart, previously reluctant to speak, reveals new information, stating that the object came from the east rather than the west, which contradicts the common explanation that Carter mistook Venus for the UFO.
Tobias describes how difficult it was to convince Hart to speak. Despite being warned that Hart had consistently turned down interviews, Tobias made the drive to Leary, Georgia, without prior notice. Upon arriving at a local peanut mill, he asked a group of locals for directions to Hart’s house. One of the men called Hart, and after a tense exchange, Hart agreed to meet with Tobias. This breakthrough was significant because Hart had consistently refused to discuss the sighting with other media figures.
Tobias continues sharing the story of his meeting with Fred Hart. Upon arriving at Hart’s house, Fred’s first question to Tobias was whether he was from the government, which Tobias denied, introducing himself as being from Savannah. Fred warmed up after some conversation about shrimp, but initially refused to be interviewed. Tobias explained the significance of the UFO sighting, including how it involved a future U.S. president, and managed to get Fred to tell the story off-camera first. After two hours, Fred agreed to be filmed, though he tried to back out several times during the process. Fred eventually explained that at his age, he no longer cared what people thought, which allowed him to open up about the sighting.
Fred recounted that he, along with Jimmy Carter and a small group of others, saw a large, luminous object in the sky as they left a Lions Club meeting. The object changed colors, appeared to move like a solid, but had qualities of a liquid. It stayed in the sky for about ten minutes before quickly dissipating. Despite their attempts to get others to come out and witness the sighting, no one inside the building joined them. Hart also mentioned that he was unaware the incident had been widely explained as a sighting of Venus and had no idea people thought the object came from the west.
Tobias recounts how Fred Hart was visibly offended by the suggestion that what he and Jimmy Carter had seen could have been Venus. Fred, having lived in the area all his life, was adamant that he knew what Venus looked like and pointed to the exact direction where Venus would be in the sky, emphasizing that the object they saw came from the east. Fred still reflects on the event, sometimes going out to his back porch to look at the sky, wishing he could see it again. Tobias explains that the object they witnessed disintegrated slowly, and when he asked Fred if it made any maneuvers that aircraft could not, Fred confidently stated that it didn’t resemble any aircraft he’d seen in decades of living near an airport.
Art and Tobias discuss Jimmy Carter’s promises about UFO disclosure when he became president, with Carter vowing to make the information public if he had access to it. However, nothing significant came to light during his presidency. Tobias mentions that while the U.S. government remains secretive about UFOs, South American governments and military officials tend to be much more open about the subject, even while still in active duty.
Tobias also shares a story involving James Fox, whose father, a Rolling Stone interviewer, once tried to get Carter to comment on his UFO sighting during a book signing. When asked directly about UFOs, Carter’s demeanor abruptly changed, becoming distant and withdrawn, as if he’d been instructed to react this way when the topic was mentioned.
Art and Tobias continue their conversation with a quick mention of the website artbellgoodstuff.com, which Tobias set up to release exclusive content related to the Lights Over Leary project. For the first time, viewers could see never-before-released footage, including a sizzle reel featuring testimonies from credible witnesses. Tobias also offers a free PDF download of his book Savannah Shadows, which had previously held a high ranking in Amazon’s parapsychology section.
Tobias shares behind-the-scenes information about Ann Druffle bringing the original Rex Heflin Polaroid UFO photos to the set, which had been missing for nearly 30 years. In addition, the site features about two dozen articles they uncovered on the UFO sightings in Leary, Georgia, dating from 1969 to 1975. Tobias and his team painstakingly pulled these reports from archives, confirming that Carter’s sighting took place on January 6, 1969, not October as initially reported. His sighting marked the beginning of a five-year period with over three dozen UFO reports in the region.
The discussion shifts to Tobias’s upcoming theatrical release, 701, which references the 701 unexplained cases from Project Blue Book, a government project investigating UFO sightings. Out of over 12,000 cases collected between 1952 and 1969, 701 remain unexplained, not for a lack of evidence, but because the data could not be attributed to any known phenomenon. Tobias notes that while many dismiss Project Blue Book as a smokescreen, some investigators were dedicated to the truth, leading to these unresolved cases.
Tobias and Art continue discussing the implications of UFO disclosure, noting how Project Blue Book, despite its efforts, left 701 cases unresolved. Tobias remarks that some investigators within the project were genuinely searching for the truth, but the public should expect a more gradual “small d” disclosure rather than a dramatic revelation. He believes that over time, the mounting evidence will become undeniable, and future generations will grow up accepting the existence of extraterrestrial metal craft as a normal fact.
Art then shifts the conversation towards Tobias’s background, asking how he transitioned from being an engineer at AT&T to a full-time paranormal researcher. Tobias explains that his passion for the paranormal always existed, but he initially worked in engineering to pay the bills. While working, he used his spare time to explore paranormal locations during his travels. His fascination with the paranormal, particularly in Savannah, eventually drew him in full-time after years of pursuing it as a hobby.
They discuss Savannah’s reputation as America’s most haunted city, a title given by the American Institute of Parapsychology in 2002, based on field investigations and historical factors. Tobias highlights how cities like Salem, Gettysburg, and New Orleans were also considered, but Savannah’s history and paranormal activity stood out. Art then asks Tobias about his personal experiences as an investigator in such a haunted place.
Tobias recounts a deeply personal and unsettling paranormal experience he had while in Savannah on a scouting trip. He describes sitting on a bench while waiting for a photographer to explore nearby tunnels. The photographer, who was wearing a distinctive baby blue hat and scarf, disappeared into the tunnels. As Tobias waited, he saw what he thought was the photographer peeking out from behind a tree, smiling in an odd, unnatural way. The smile seemed forced, as if it were a poor imitation of a human expression, and the figure began to lose its form, slinking back behind the tree.
Moments later, the real photographer returned from the tunnels, leaving Tobias in a state of shock. He felt cold and electric during the experience and was unable to talk about it for hours, eventually staying away from Savannah for almost a year. Tobias reflects on how paranormal experiences can leave people in a state of disbelief and shock, especially when they occur in broad daylight, in contrast to the typical expectations of night-time hauntings.
Later, after discussing the incident with a friend involved in a voodoo village near Savannah, Tobias learned that what he had encountered was likely a shapeshifter, or a “hag.” This entity is said to take the form of someone close to you, a little girl, or a white cat, and feeds off the unhappiness of others like a psychic vampire. This explanation provided some clarity on the strange and unsettling experience he had witnessed.
Tobias reflects on the possibility that his mental state at the time of the incident in Savannah may have played a role in what he experienced, as he was going through a deep depression after a traumatic event. While he can’t completely rule out the idea that what he saw could have been a hallucination, he insists that he generally considers himself well-adjusted and has never hallucinated before or since. He acknowledges the mind’s capacity for extraordinary things, both good and bad, but remains uncertain about the exact nature of what he witnessed.
Art then shifts the conversation toward paranormal experiences in general, asking Tobias how often they tend to be negative or terrifying. Tobias notes that while most reported stories tend to emphasize fear and negativity—because that’s what sells—many people share more positive or neutral experiences when speaking privately. Often these involve encounters with lost loved ones or unidentified figures that are perceived as protective, rather than threatening. Even in these situations, however, the experience is so intense and beyond normal comprehension that it can lead to shock and denial, preventing people from processing it properly.
Art agrees, noting that even an encounter with a seemingly peaceful apparition would still be terrifying simply because it’s not human. Tobias explains that these experiences leave people struggling with a lack of closure, something that can weigh heavily on them for the rest of their lives.
At this point, Art prepares to introduce James Fox, a filmmaker known for his work on UFOs. James has a rich background in journalism and documentary filmmaking, having worked on projects for major networks like the Sci-Fi Channel and History Channel. His film I Know What I Saw is one of his best-known works, and Art commends the title for capturing the certainty many witnesses feel after profound UFO sightings.
James Fox explains how the title for his film I Know What I Saw came about after hearing multiple witnesses assertively say, “I know what I saw.” This powerful phrase resonated with him, and he realized it was the perfect title for the documentary. He and Art then discuss how 701 refers to the 701 unexplained cases from Project Blue Book, which remained unresolved despite thorough investigation.
James shares his journey into the UFO field, crediting Art Bell’s radio show as an inspiration in the mid-90s. He recalls being fascinated by the subject, especially around the 50th anniversary of the Roswell incident, when many whistleblowers began coming forward. Despite pressure from his family and mainstream journalism to reconsider pursuing the topic, James continued, producing his first documentary UFOs: 50 Years of Denial, which he sold to the Discovery Channel. Initially, he thought this would be his only UFO film, but he kept getting opportunities and invitations to explore the subject further, including a pivotal trip to Russia. Each subsequent project gave him better access to witnesses, and his interest in the topic grew.
James Fox recounts how his career in UFO documentaries continued unexpectedly. Following the success of UFOs: 50 Years of Denial, he was contacted by someone in Russia who wanted to broadcast the film for free. Instead of giving it away, James negotiated access to interviews with prominent figures like cosmonaut Pavel Popovich and General Alexei in Star City, Russia. This opportunity eventually led to his next film, Out of the Blue.
James then explains how his latest project, 701, symbolizes the unresolved cases from Project Blue Book. While it covers some historical cases, like the 1947 UFO wave and the 1964 Socorro, New Mexico case, the documentary also includes international cases, such as one from 1994 in Ruwa, Zimbabwe. In this case, 200 schoolchildren witnessed a UFO during recess. The children, ranging in age from 8 to 11, saw a flash of light and then a flying saucer in a nearby field, along with beings. The event was investigated by BBC correspondents and Dr. John Mack, a Harvard psychiatrist. Mack interviewed the children and documented their drawings and claims of telepathic communication with the beings. Unfortunately, Mack passed away in a tragic accident in London, but the material from his investigation was left with filmmaker Randall Nickerson, who has been working on a documentary about the case since 2006.
James Fox continues discussing the 1994 Ruwa, Zimbabwe UFO case, clarifying that while 62 children drew images of the beings and the craft, nearly 200 schoolchildren witnessed the event. He explains that the BBC and other media covered the case soon after it occurred, but many details remain largely unknown to the public. James reveals that he recently reunited some of the original witnesses—now adults—who hadn’t seen each other in 20 years. During the reunion, the women, who had stood next to each other during the sighting, discussed their memories and recreated their drawings of the beings.
The beings, about the same height as the children at the time, communicated telepathically, sending images of environmental destruction and urging better care for the planet. James notes the familiarity of this message, as it aligns with similar claims from other encounters. The witnesses recalled time seeming to slow down during the event, and though they struggled to explain it as children, their adult reflections were clearer. Some of the women have kept the experience to themselves for years, even hiding it from their spouses, and have had recurring dreams related to the event.
Despite the initial media attention, the children were never offered support or therapy to process the encounter, leaving them to deal with it alone. Art asks about the drawings the children made, and James confirms they have preserved the images, describing how the beings and the field where the encounter occurred were depicted.
James Fox continues describing the details of the Ruwa, Zimbabwe UFO encounter, noting that the children knew they couldn’t cross beyond certain logs marking the boundary of the playground, and interestingly, the beings also didn’t cross into the children’s zone. One of the girls, Emily, recalled feeling drawn to follow the beings, almost in a trance, but then snapped out of it, realizing it wasn’t a good idea. At that moment, the school bell rang, signaling the end of recess, and the encounter ended.
James then describes what the children drew: beings with tight-fitting suits, resembling wetsuits, with spindly arms and legs. The beings hovered rather than walked, and the most distinctive feature was their large black, almond-shaped eyes, which communicated telepathically with the children. The beings had small slits for mouths and noses, and the interaction occurred through eye contact, with the beings sending images of environmental destruction, warning the children that humanity needed to take better care of the planet.
Art and James briefly discuss the mysterious death of Dr. John Mack, a Harvard psychiatrist who had been investigating the case, with Art expressing suspicion about the circumstances of Mack’s death. They then transition to talking about the daughter of Kenneth Arnold, the famous pilot who reported one of the earliest UFO sightings in 1947. Arnold’s daughter, Kim, revealed that her father had been threatened by someone in the Air Force when he planned to go public with his findings.
Tobias adds a personal story, mentioning how after a film shoot in Los Angeles, their locked equipment cases were opened by TSA, which was expected. However, after discussing sensitive documents with researcher Clifford Stone, Tobias became aware of the vast number of classified documents Stone possessed and how protective he had to be of this information.
Tobias McGriff recounts a strange incident involving classified documents given to him by Clifford Stone. Upon returning to Savannah, Tobias found that despite using TSA-approved locks on his luggage, the locks were missing, and the documents were oddly placed on top of his clothes, with a TSA notice inside the folder containing declassified files. This raised suspicion, especially when Don Schmidt, a fellow researcher, mentioned that similar things had happened to him, including a hotel room break-in during an investigation.
Art Bell expresses his long-standing disbelief regarding the death of Dr. John Mack, who was hit by a vehicle in London. Despite the official story that Mack had simply not looked both ways, Art insists it’s more likely that Mack was killed due to the sensitive nature of his work. Art asks what kind of information could be so dangerous that it might lead to someone being silenced, hinting at larger forces at play in UFO research.
Tobias, although not a conspiracy theorist, shares his belief that governments might not trust the public with knowledge about extraterrestrial encounters. He explains that with the current ease of accessing and distributing information, keeping control over such revelations could become a major issue for those in power. Tobias then mentions a recent experience involving the high-end equipment he acquired for filming the 701 documentary. Just two days after purchasing it, he decided to lend it to his director of photography (DP) for a separate project. This decision, Tobias notes, was an unusual hunch but one that might have protected the equipment from potential tampering, as he goes on to describe more about the incident.
Tobias shares a disturbing incident where, just two days after obtaining high-end equipment for filming the 701 documentary, his home was broken into. The intruders expertly removed the glass from his front door but took only his passport and inspected the Pelican cases where the equipment would have been stored, though it wasn’t there at the time. Tobias notes that the break-in occurred shortly after he obtained insurance, making it seem highly suspicious. He reflects that his troubles only began once he shifted his focus from paranormal topics to UFO research, hinting that the nature of the subject could be the reason behind the escalating interference.
Art and Tobias then discuss the potential motivations behind silencing individuals, suggesting that the government might resort to extreme measures, such as controlling or even eliminating those who come too close to revealing sensitive UFO-related information. Tobias remarks that governments often rely on maintaining control, and knowledge of phenomena like UFOs threatens that control.
The conversation moves to past government inquiries into UFOs, including those by officials like Stephen Schiff, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, and Gerald Ford, as well as J. Edgar Hoover. Despite these inquiries, answers have remained elusive, with key documents often disappearing or remaining hidden. Art and James reflect on how certain “shadowy” parts of the government, rather than elected officials, might be responsible for keeping such information under wraps.
James then recounts an interview with General McPeak, a high-ranking military officer who, while speaking in hypotheticals, revealed that nothing in the U.S. Air Force or military could account for the UFO sightings reported over the last 65-70 years. He explained that unidentified objects in U.S. airspace that jets couldn’t intercept would remain classified, further emphasizing the government’s lack of public disclosure on the topic.
James Fox continues describing his interview with General McPeak, during which the general revealed that all the Roswell files were intact, contrary to earlier claims that they had been destroyed. McPeak stated that when he became Joint Chief of Staff, he personally looked into the files and found thousands of documents, although he didn’t have time to go through them all. This revelation contradicted the official account given to Stephen Schiff, a former congressman, who had been told the files were missing or destroyed.
The conversation then shifts to threats against those who reveal sensitive UFO information. James recounts the case of Richard T. Holder, the first military officer on the scene of the famous 1964 Lonnie Zamora UFO sighting in Socorro, New Mexico. Holder was prepared to go on camera for Unsolved Mysteries to reveal new information about the incident, including evidence that corroborated Zamora’s claims of extraterrestrial beings. However, just before his appearance, Holder received a phone call that reminded him of his security clearances and implied dire consequences if he revealed too much. Shaken by the call, Holder gave a much more sanitized version of events on the show.
Tobias McGriff then provides details about the Socorro incident, in which highway patrolman Lonnie Zamora witnessed a fiery explosion and what appeared to be an egg-shaped craft. Initially, Zamora thought he saw two children in white overalls near the craft, but as he approached, he realized they were not human. The craft then took off in front of him. Holder, along with others, arrived to take plaster casts of the landing gear marks and footprints, but the full extent of the evidence remained hidden due to the threats Holder received.
Tobias continues recounting the pressure that Lonnie Zamora faced after his famous UFO sighting in Socorro, New Mexico. Although he was simply a highway patrolman chasing a speeder, Zamora’s life changed after witnessing the egg-shaped object and its occupants. The scrutiny and attention became so overwhelming that Zamora eventually left the police force and ended up managing a gas station. His life was upended by the event, something he had no control over, and he passed away in 2009, his wife still living in Socorro.
James adds that Zamora initially thought he was approaching an overturned car with two injured children standing beside it. As he got closer, he realized it was a craft and that the figures were not children. One of the beings seemed startled when Zamora made eye contact. After further investigation, it was revealed that there was a symbol on the craft, which the Air Force decided to keep secret to prevent hoaxes. The Air Force also tried to downplay Zamora’s sighting of the beings, suggesting he report that he had seen something as mundane as overalls hanging on a clothesline.
James emphasizes how important these details are, explaining that this tactic of withholding key evidence is similar to strategies used in criminal investigations. He also mentions that descriptions of the beings, initially downplayed, were documented and stored in military archives.
Tobias McGriff and James Fox continue their discussion, with Tobias highlighting the website he set up, artbellgoodstuff.com, which features exclusive content such as a video of Fred Hart discussing his UFO sighting alongside Jimmy Carter. The website also includes a free download of Tobias’s book, Savannah Shadows, and rare articles detailing various UFO sightings in southwest Georgia. These articles were difficult to obtain, as they came from a small local newspaper, and are now compiled on the website for the first time.
James then returns to the Socorro, New Mexico case, describing Officer Lonnie Zamora’s encounter with the beings near the egg-shaped craft. Zamora noted that the beings wore tight-fitting white jumpsuits and had spindly, childlike bodies with slightly larger heads. They were short, standing just under four feet tall, as determined by their proximity to a bush that Zamora later measured.
James emphasizes how these descriptions are eerily similar to other accounts of extraterrestrial sightings, and Art notes that this consistency should be triggering alarm bells for the audience. James proceeds to read a document recently uncovered from the National Archives, specifically from Project Blue Book, which reflects the level of internal panic within the Air Force during this period due to these credible and unambiguous UFO encounters.
James Fox reads a letter from the Air Force archives, showing the panic caused by the 1964 Socorro, New Mexico UFO incident. The letter highlights how inquiries were pouring in from the media, the President’s office, and members of Congress, seeking information on the sighting, leaving the Air Force scrambling for a response. This lack of control over information became a recurring issue for the military during credible UFO sightings, leading to an effort to keep such events under wraps.
The conversation shifts to why governments might be willing to take extreme measures, even lives, to keep UFO-related information secret. Art Bell and Tobias McGriff discuss how the existence of extraterrestrials could challenge societal beliefs, especially if aliens had any involvement in human origins, contradicting religious teachings. Such revelations could cause mass panic and destabilize institutions. Tobias adds that governments, being entities built on control, would go to great lengths to maintain it, even over relatively minor issues, much less something as monumental as alien life.
James shares his suspicion regarding Congressman Stephen Schiff, who had been investigating UFOs and pressing the Air Force for answers before suddenly dying of cancer. He recounts an encounter with Newt Gingrich at a fundraising event shortly after Schiff’s death, where Gingrich’s demeanor changed abruptly when asked about UFO disclosure. When James mentioned Schiff’s passing, Gingrich acknowledged it but gave no further details, reinforcing James’ suspicions.
James Fox shares a story from an interview where an NSA individual casually mentioned that they no longer “put bullets in people” but instead use a device that can cause cancer from a distance by inducing malignant cell division. This revelation left James uneasy, especially considering similar cases where people investigating UFOs or speaking out about them, like Peter Jennings and Congressman Stephen Schiff, were suddenly diagnosed with cancer.
James and Tobias reflect on Schiff’s efforts to investigate the Air Force’s handling of UFO information, including the Roswell incident. Schiff was publicly pushing for answers, questioning why debris from a supposed weather balloon would be transported under armed guard to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. He was met with a frustrating lack of cooperation, and when he finally gained access to the files, they were reportedly destroyed. Shortly after, Schiff was diagnosed with cancer and passed away, leading many, including James, to suspect foul play.
The conversation turns to General McPeak, who recently stated on camera that thousands of UFO-related documents, including Roswell files, were still intact, contradicting the official story Schiff had been told. James expresses frustration, wondering how they can hold the government accountable when so much is hidden, and concludes that public pressure will be key to bringing the truth to light. He notes that efforts like handing out copies of his documentary Out of the Blue to members of Congress can help spread awareness, but emphasizes that real change will only happen if the public demands it.
James Fox shares details about the 1996 Varginha, Brazil case, which he initially dismissed but later investigated. In the early morning, witnesses saw a UFO in distress, described as a large van-shaped craft emitting sparks but without wings or noise. The next day, several witnesses, including three schoolgirls, reported seeing strange creatures. These beings were about four feet tall, with oily, organ-like skin, spindly arms and legs, big red eyes, and ridges on their heads. The creatures appeared feeble and non-aggressive, with many in the town describing similar encounters.
The three girls believed they had seen the devil, as they were religious and had no concept of extraterrestrials. As they fled, other witnesses, including construction workers, confirmed they saw the same creature. The entire town saw increased military and hospital activity, with military trucks cordoning off the area and securing the debris field from the crash.
James recounts how he visited the town square and spoke to locals, all of whom had stories related to the incident, indicating the widespread nature of the sightings. The case is well-documented and widely believed in the region, with many reputable researchers investigating it.
Art then poses an intriguing question to both Tobias and James, asking if they believe there is a connection between extraterrestrial encounters and paranormal activity. Tobias begins to respond, suggesting that these phenomena might indeed be linked.
Tobias explains that his transition into investigating broader phenomena stems from the belief that focusing only on UFOs as extraterrestrial metalcraft might lead to missing the bigger picture. He sees connections between different strange phenomena, such as light, energy, and dimensions, suggesting these events might be interrelated. James adds to this by discussing how, in the Varginha case, the Brazilian military attempted to dismiss the creatures as merely a homeless man, which the locals found as ridiculous as some other UFO dismissals.
James recounts how the Brazilian Army approached the three girls who saw the creatures, offering them a reward if they would recant their story and claim they made it up. The girls refused, resulting in their lives becoming difficult, as they faced ridicule and even became unemployable due to constant media attention. They now regret the encounter, as it has caused them great hardship.
As Art opens the phone lines, he reflects on the gravity of the night’s discussions, inviting listeners to call in and ask questions. The first caller, from Georgia, describes a UFO sighting in 1975 that resembled the children’s game “ball and jack” with multicolored lights. Tobias responds, noting similar sightings in the Rome, Georgia, area around that time.
A caller from Nevada, Jerry, brings up the Celestine Prophecy and its connection to paranormal and UFO investigations, suggesting that it introduces a broader concept of reality. Jerry also comments on how governments, both historical and contemporary, thrive on secrecy, manipulation, and control, arguing that they will never tell the full truth because doing so would unravel the fabric of society, both politically and economically. Tobias and James agree, acknowledging that secrecy is necessary to some extent but also recognizing that the UFO phenomenon is far more significant than other government secrets.
James shares an insightful comment from Colonel Coleman, a former public spokesperson for Project Blue Book, who explained that the government doesn’t disclose UFO information because admitting they don’t have answers would open the floodgates of inquiries. The inability to control or explain unidentified objects in the air would be a major blow to government authority.
Tobias mentions that traffic to the website artbellgoodstuff.com caused a temporary crash due to high demand, but it is now back online. He explains how listeners can access the free download of his book Savannah Shadows. Art humorously mentions how even the best servers can be overwhelmed when traffic surges, but Tobias reassures listeners that the site is working again.
The segment closes with a call from the Philippines, where Rob talks with Art about monitoring news and the possibility of a government deal. They discuss the recurring political issues in the U.S. and reflect on Art’s potential return to the Philippines.
In this segment, a caller from Georgia asks about the Austell UFO sighting from the late 1940s or early 1950s. The caller mentions a military cover-up where an alien was dismissed as a “shaved monkey hit by a truck.” James Fox responds, noting that military explanations for UFO sightings, such as the infamous Roswell test dummy story, often sound more absurd than the actual events themselves.
Another caller from Texas brings up Fire in the Sky, the movie based on Travis Walton’s abduction experience. James confirms he interviewed Travis extensively and finds his story compelling and believable. James also points out that the ending of the film Fire in the Sky did not accurately depict Travis’s account of what happened, which has frustrated Travis and those involved with the film. In response, James and his team are working to set the record straight in their documentary 701. He recounts visiting Snowflake, Arizona, the site of Travis’s abduction, and reiterates that the witnesses passed lie detector tests, adding credibility to the case.
James shares chilling details from Travis’s story, including how, upon waking aboard the craft, Travis initially thought he was in a hospital but soon realized the beings surrounding him were unlike any doctors he’d ever seen. He recalls Travis’s account of feeling weak and trying to fight off the beings in slow motion, an experience that still haunts him.
A caller from Pittsburgh asks about underground military bases and tunnel systems, mentioning a story they heard about a tunnel connecting Pittsburgh to an Ohio base. James responds by sharing a deathbed statement from Colonel Weinbrenner, a former head of foreign technology at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. Weinbrenner claimed that a UFO crash with recovered bodies was connected to an underground facility at Dulce, New Mexico, where the bodies were stored.
Another caller from Texas asks about encounters with two different species of extraterrestrial beings. James mentions that such stories are actually quite common, with many people, including last night’s guest, describing interactions with different types of beings. He references Clifford Stone, another individual who claimed to have encountered multiple species.
A caller from Ohio shares a personal experience from childhood, recounting seeing three beams of light chasing each other in the sky. After telling his parents and school teachers, three men in black suits appeared and warned him not to share the story with anyone. The caller expresses relief after hearing similar accounts on the show, realizing that his experience might not have been as unusual as he once thought.
Finally, a caller from Florida brings up the concept of humans being a “seeded civilization” from elsewhere in the universe. The caller wonders whether learning this truth would be welcomed by society, suggesting that it might be more comforting than traditional religious explanations.
A caller from Florida discusses the idea that humans may have been seeded by an alien civilization, arguing that it could be a welcome revelation rather than a shock to society. Art reacts humorously, but Tobias McGriff responds seriously, noting that in deeply religious areas like the South, this concept wouldn’t be received well. He also points out that even globally, such a revelation could face resistance, especially in places like Vatican City. The conversation highlights the potential cultural and religious challenges such discoveries would face.
Another caller from Missouri mentions a sighting of a triangular UFO hovering over a detention facility, asking if anyone had heard of similar cases. While James and Tobias haven’t heard of that specific scenario, they acknowledge that sightings of triangular-shaped craft are well-documented, including the famous Phoenix Lights and footage from Fresno, California. They speculate that some of these sightings might involve military aircraft, particularly the TR-3B, which is rumored to be a secret military craft.
A caller from Georgia then describes an experience from 1993, where they saw three star-like objects moving rapidly across the sky in zigzag patterns. Tobias connects the sighting to other reports from the area, particularly those described in an article on the artbellgoodstuff.com website called “Neons Gone Mad.” He suggests the caller check the article for similar accounts.
Art closes the segment by confirming that the artbellgoodstuff.com website will remain live for at least a month, and mentions that more content could be added as the days go by, including any additional materials from James.
A caller from Minnesota brings up the question of how extraterrestrials might fit into religious beliefs, suggesting that perhaps God didn’t stop with creating humans and that extraterrestrial life could be part of God’s broader creation. Art Bell responds by acknowledging that such an idea wouldn’t necessarily conflict with Christian beliefs unless extraterrestrials introduced themselves as humanity’s creators, which could cause significant problems for established religious narratives.
Another caller from Canada asks about Riley Martin, a SiriusXM host and claimed alien contactee. Neither Art nor his guests, Tobias McGriff and James Fox, are familiar with Riley Martin’s specific story, although they acknowledge that he is known in UFO circles.
A caller from North Carolina shares personal UFO sightings, including one in 1972 where a disk-shaped craft took off straight into the air. They also mention attending an event led by Dr. Steven Greer, a prominent figure in UFO disclosure, where multiple UFOs were “called in.” Art and his guests acknowledge Dr. Greer’s influence and success in conducting these sightings, referencing his work and recent documentary, Sirius.
During this conversation, Art mentions that many listeners have been experiencing disconnections on SiriusXM due to overwhelming server loads, but assures them that the issue is being addressed.
Another caller from Minnesota questions whether extraterrestrials might be violent, noting that stories involving crashes often suggest they are not, as they are brought to underground facilities rather than responding with aggression.
James Fox shares details about an initiative backed by a wealthy benefactor, Larry Fischella, who is offering a $100,000 reward for clear, definitive evidence related to UFOs—whether it be photographic, video, or physical material from a crash site. James emphasizes that the reward is genuine and that more funds could be raised if someone comes forward with truly compelling evidence. He encourages anyone with such evidence, particularly military personnel who might have come across documentation or recordings of UFO encounters during their duties, to get in touch via the 701 documentary website.
Art Bell humorously responds, noting the difficulties of capturing clear UFO photos. He highlights the frustrating reality that when people finally get a good photo, it’s often dismissed as being “too clear” and assumed to be faked. Despite this challenge, James remains hopeful that there are still individuals with valuable evidence who might be willing to come forward, especially with the financial incentive.
The next caller, David from Mississippi, a retired Air Force member, offers his perspective on why the government might cover up UFO encounters. He suggests that any extraterrestrial visitors would likely represent the best of their respective species, with advanced technology that could potentially be a highly valuable and powerful weapon. The U.S. government, like any other, would prioritize controlling such technology, especially before fully understanding or defending against it.
A caller from Illinois poses an intriguing question about the opposing views of Dr. Stephen Greer and Dr. David Jacobs regarding extraterrestrials. Greer believes that aliens are here for benevolent reasons, while Jacobs theorizes that humanity is at the end stage of an alien program involving hybrid beings, potentially leading to human elimination or integration. Art and his guests, Tobias and James, reflect on the contrasting theories, with Tobias admitting that while both are speculative, if extraterrestrials wanted to harm us, they likely would have already done so. He adds that while we might not need to fear them, there isn’t much reason to be overly hopeful either.
Tobias offers a vivid analogy, comparing humanity’s interaction with extraterrestrials to cats chasing a laser pointer. He suggests that aliens could be toying with us, staying far ahead technologically, much like how humans tease cats with lasers. He notes that aliens might be monitoring our nuclear capabilities, as sightings seem to have intensified after the first nuclear bomb tests.
Art recalls a theory from a previous guest that post-nuclear activity attracted so many extraterrestrials to Earth that some may have “bumped into each other,” explaining early UFO crashes. They also discuss the possibility that experimental radar systems in the southwest might have interfered with extraterrestrial navigation.
A caller from Wisconsin asks if the proliferation of alien-themed TV shows and movies since the 1950s is Hollywood’s way of preparing society for potential extraterrestrial contact.
As the show wraps up, a caller from Wisconsin asks if Hollywood has been preparing society for extraterrestrial contact by saturating media with alien-related content. Tobias and James humorously suggest they might unknowingly be part of that effort. While they acknowledge that frequent portrayals of aliens in movies and TV could help desensitize the public to the idea of extraterrestrials, they are unsure if it’s a coordinated effort.
James shares a letter from Steven Spielberg, addressed to Larry King, where Spielberg praised the documentary I Know What I Saw and expressed his hope for government disclosure regarding UFOs, despite never having seen one himself.
The final caller, Margie from California, discusses her rare Rh-negative blood type, speculating that it could be evidence of genetic engineering, since Rh-negative blood doesn’t carry the “monkey gene” present in most humans. Art humorously responds, noting the uniqueness of her claim, and wraps up the show with a playful goodbye.
Tobias reminds listeners to check out the artbellgoodstuff.com website for updates on the Leary film, which will be released in 2014. James also directs people to 701themovie.com for those who may want to share evidence or discuss modern-day UFO cases.
With a lighthearted farewell, Art concludes the episode, promising more dark matter in the night.